distant signal question

[russ p]

Is there anyway where a box doesn't have a distant signal?

The reason I'm asking is that although it's not that clear in the picture a branch diverges to the right under the bridge and forms a triangle. I don't want to put distant arms under the platform starters as I'm going to model route indicators. Would it be prototypical to have a distant on a bracket before the bridge or not have one at all.

If I put it on the curve it would look odd as the home for the next box would be about two feet away.

[28XX]

This is all probably within 'station limits' and the control of one box.  There need be only one distant, 800 yards (dependant on line speed and gradient) in rear of the first stop signal (home signal).  Short answer, no need for one at all.  Long answer, post a track layout and be prepared for three pages of debate on signal siting - Great fun!

[Edwin_m]

I think "distant indicator working" between two or more closely-spaced box could be used without the second box involved having a physical distant signal.  Instead the lever would work an indicator in the first box, and the signalman there could not clear his distant unless the indicator permitted it. 

[russ p]

Not the greatest diagram! That's given me another problem, the platform starters become the section signal for that route. I'm pretty sure you can't have station limits of one box next to station limits of the next without a block section.

Mind I've just thought of Whitby and its a long time ago but I have a feeling this may have applied to town box and bog hall

[Ray H]

I'm assuming that the junction to the right which you mention is just beyond the second bridge and that there are stop signals protecting that junction close by. I think I'm right in saying that the junction stop signal(s) would normally be very close to the point blades with a facing point lock and bar between the two so that the points could not be changed once the front of the train had passed the signal.

 

Equally I presume that the distant signal(s) you're referring to are those in advance - i.e. before the junction stop signals and are the distant signal(s) providing drivers with an indication of how they might expect to find the junction stop signal(s).

 

Can I also guess that the station platform is just out of sight to the left of the image?

 

On that basis the distant signal(s) appertaining to the junction would be more likely to be either on the same signal post as the home signals - the stop signals before the platform - and possibly even on a post on their own before the home signals.

 

n.b.

A facing point lock (FPL) is a mechanical device that "bolts" the point in position. The points cannot be changed once the facing point lock lever has been operated to lock the points (unless the bolt is released by altering the FPL lever's position).

 

The bar is a further device most commonly operated by the same lever as the FPL. The bar is found alongside one of the running rails on the approach side of the point. The bar is operated by a cam arrangement when the FPL lever is changed. The bar is in the lowered position when the lever is at either end of its travel but the bar rises and then drops again as the FPL lever's position changes. However, the bar can't rise far enough if there's a wheel flange above it. This in turn stops the FPL lever from being changed and because the FPL is interlocked with the points the points can't be changed with a train passing over the bar.

 

Apologies if this explanation is either unnecessary or too general/simplistic.

 

Edited to correct a speeling mistook and to add the following as the diagram appeared whilst I was originally drafting my post.

 

The track layout suggests the station concerned is a terminus. I would suggest that the junction is too close to the terminus for the distant signals to be relevant. However there may be a distant under the junction home (stop) signal that applies to the route to the through station from the junction.

[micknich2003]

 Way back in 1979 my first signalling job was Cherry Tree at Beverley, East Yorkshire. Cherry Tree was near enough midway between Beverley and Beverley North boxes, and each approx 600yards apart. Cherry Tree didn't have a Distant as such but worked a "Slot" on Beverley's Distant, by the time I got there, it had long been a colour light, but that made no difference to the method of working. Oweing to the short sections, Cherry Tree was instructed not to clear the Distant until Beverley North had also cleared his Distant. To further complicate matters, Beverley's Starter was also slotted as Cherry Tree's Home signal, and with Beverley North's Outer Distant below, Beverley North's Inner Distant was below Cherry Tree's Starter. As all trains stopped at Beverley, apart from summer excursions, it was very rare the Distant was cleared.

[flyingsignalman]

At Birkenhead Woodside the up platform starting signals were also the section signals and about 50 yards further on was the Blackpool St up distant signal. Originally the distant had been fitted to a gantry signal that had the down home signals on it; when the down home signals were replaced by a colour light in the tunnel a left hand bracket was installed to carry the distant.

 

A couple of diagrams that may explain or confuse the issue............

Woodside with semaphore home signals....

 

...and with a colour light home.

 

Blackpool St with the left hand bracket distant signal.

[russ p]

Hi Ray,thanks for that. Excellent stuff. The distant I was thinking of is the one for the signal box near the river bridge. The double track route away from the station will have a distant under the section signal. I'm not going to bother with a limit of shunt board on the opposite running line as I'm envisaging any shunt moves will be 'right' line running to set back into the station or yard behind a signal after the bridge

[russ p]

Posted the last post before I saw Mick's and Keith's, thanks chaps, I think I can get away with not having a distant for that route.

[The Stationmaster]

Posted the last post before I saw Mick's and Keith's, thanks chaps, I think I can get away with not having a distant for that route.

You definitely can - and plenty of block sections around in the old days where they were no longer than the thickness of a signal post.

 

As far as distants in short sections are concerned there were variations in Company/Regional practice which meant that in some cases 'boxes had no Distant Signal at all (nor a lever to control or slot a Distant worked by an adjacent 'box)