Jim Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Hi, I've just wired up a Guagemaster reversing module used on a peco code75 electrofrog crossing. Red wires to the main bus and the yellow wires to each frog on the crossing. As per the diagram in Brian Lambert's most excellent DCC page: http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC.htm I've hopefully attached an image of the particular diagram. I am using an NCE Power Cab Pro 5amp controller. One side of the crossing is plain line and the other end are two electrofrog code75 peco points The problem I have is this.. When trains enter the crossing from the "plain line" side of the crossing, every thing is fine, no hesitation and I can hear the module clicking as it detects the short and flips the polarity of the frogs. When trains enter from the points end of the crossing, the controller seems to detect the short before the module has chance to flip the polarity causing the loco to "restart" before moving off. Occasionally the train comes to a complete stand and the short can't be resolved. The NCE trips after 500ms detection of a short and is not adjustable as far as I know. I would understand if it was not working in both directions but just having problems in one is strange. My thoughts are that it could be the module, something connected to the pointwork or the NCE is too sensitive. Any ideas will be much appritiated. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 It sounds like your wiring might need beefing up a bit. It might be that the short circuit current is being passed through the frog and frog switching of the points which might be a high impedance path and cause slow switching. It might be possible to wire at least one of the point frogs to at least one of the diamond frogs to force the autoreverser to change over before the train gets there. Since you are saying that the autoreverser clicks it might be one of the old fashioned type with relays that are often a bit slow to react compared to electronic ones. In most cases it is posssible to use an auxilliary switch on an adjacent point (like a PL15 or auxilliary contacts on a slow motion motor) to switch the frogs on the diamond to completely eliminate the need for a reverser. If you can upload your track plan we can see what can be done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 If there is no convenient associated point from which to control the V polarities, an electronic switch such as the Frog Juicer, 'designed for the purpose', or other, modern, solid state auto-reverser woulöd probably be better suited. As Suzie mentioned, ANY use of an Auto reverser needs to have a very good current path - not only on the section it is switching, BUT ALSO the 'reference' sections either side against which it is being compared! However, an alternative approach, suited to free-running across the diamond, would be to place 4 optical IR detectors in each of the approach tracks --- pairing them accordingly -- so that one diagonal triggers a changeover to it 'its polarity/route', and the other sets it the other way ... this will set itself automatically on all occasions even a power-up with a train occupying the crossing. Thinking in terms of MERG components: the Hector Optical Detector works over a wide range of lighting conditions, and costs about 6GBP (when I last bought them).. so 4 would cost 24-30. Additionally either a Solenoid changeove swich is needed, or a relay operated from a simple Set/reset latch (1 IC and a cheap relay ... probably a cheaper solutiuon than te Gaugemaster AR? YOU MIGHT be able to 'halve' the cost, by modifying the Hector to have 2 transmitters and receivers, in parallel - but it may be advantageous, if you use them elsewhere, to keep to the standard design. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted March 2, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 2, 2015 As you have the crossing connected to two Electrofrog points, then the solution is very simple, and you don't need any special switches that others are suggesting. Simply wire the frog of each turnout to the frog on the crossing furthest away from it, because both pairs of frogs always need the same polarity. Best practice is to modify the turnout to isolate the frog and switch from a polarity switch, connecting both frogs to the switch. You only need one switch on each turnout. All you need to remember is that when you route a train over plain route (ie the one that doesn't go over the turnouts) then the turnouts controlling the route across the crossing must be set to the straight position. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Thinking in terms of MERG components: the Hector Optical Detector works over a wide range of lighting conditions, and costs about 6GBP (when I last bought them).. so 4 would cost 24-30. Additionally either a Solenoid changeove swich is needed, or a relay operated from a simple Set/reset latch (1 IC and a cheap relay ... probably a cheaper solutiuon than te Gaugemaster AR? YOU MIGHT be able to 'halve' the cost, by modifying the Hector to have 2 transmitters and receivers, in parallel - but it may be advantageous, if you use them elsewhere, to keep to the standard design. The MERG Hector has been redesigned and now comes as a dual module (with 2 detectors) for £6.78. So you would only need two of them for this application. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 2, 2015 Author Share Posted March 2, 2015 Blimey.... Thanks for the replies so far... Right, I need to take some time and process these ideas. I'm thinking the guagemaster module may not be up to it...any ideas which reverse modules would be suitable. Also the idea of using the turnout frogs switching is interesting. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 The left frog is easy - it can just be wired to either of the point frogs (just make sure that the points are not both set for routes over the crossing). The right frog will need to be wired to an extra auxiliary switch on whichever point you have taken the frog feed from. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted March 2, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 2, 2015 I have two of these configurations on my layout and I use Tortoise slow-action motors for the turnouts. These have two SPDT switches built in, so that easily deals with the problem. For the top turnout in your picture, turnout frog and leftmost crossing frog to switch #1 on the turnout motor, and rightmost crossing frog to switch #2. Easily done, and no need for any fancy electronics! The lower turnout motor just needs to manage its own frog. Just remember when the lower turnout is set for a train to travel the straight road, then the upper turnout must be also be set to straight, otherwise the train will short on the crossing. But then that's prototype practice anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Double junction wiring has been gone through so many times, just search for "double junction wiring". This link goes to the first topic that comes up. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted March 2, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 2, 2015 May I just add that for ease of use/simplicity you might like to consider working the points as a pair, so they both switch the same way together. This would ensure no shorting on the crossings due to incorrect polarities through wrong route settings when the points set the polarities as has been pointed out. Izzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 May I just add that for ease of use/simplicity you might like to consider working the points as a pair, so they both switch the same way together. This would ensure no shorting on the crossings due to incorrect polarities through wrong route settings when the points set the polarities as has been pointed out. Izzy Working a double junction as a pair is rather restrictive as it prevents use of the valid setting where both outside routes are used. A better solution is to use a three way switch for the junction to prevent setting conflicting route but allow all valid routes. As mentioned in the topic I linked to. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 2, 2015 Author Share Posted March 2, 2015 Good stuff here...... Lots of ideas, thanks for the replies, plenty to think about now! Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 I'm going to try the "Hex frog juicer" first, hoping they're quicker than the relay based Guagemaster modules. I have two diamond crossings so, having six outputs is advantageous and that's how I've based my electricsl system. If, a Hex fails then the other methods you guys have suggested will be explored. I'll let you guys know how it all goes! Cheers, Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 If using the frog juicer you will need to configure it for paired mode on the frog outputs that you connect to the diamond and make sure that you use nice fat wires for the juicer, the feeds to the frogs and the track feeds around the frogs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 Cheers Suzie... Any idea of a good quality juicer? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewlisle Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 As you have the crossing connected to two Electrofrog points, then the solution is very simple, and you don't need any special switches that others are suggesting. Simply wire the frog of each turnout to the frog on the crossing furthest away from it, because both pairs of frogs always need the same polarity. Best practice is to modify the turnout to isolate the frog and switch from a polarity switch, connecting both frogs to the switch. You only need one switch on each turnout. All you need to remember is that when you route a train over plain route (ie the one that doesn't go over the turnouts) then the turnouts controlling the route across the crossing must be set to the straight position. At last, someone with a relatively cheap & simple solution. On my double junction I have a Peco SL-93 Code 100 Short Insulfrog Crossing which I have converted to a live diamond by replacing the plastic frogs & the small plastic insulators on the outside rails with small soldered rail inserts. On the point giving access across the 'plain route' I have used a Peco PL10 point motor fitted with two Peco PL-13 polarity switches. I worked out the wiring by studying what parts of the diamond required switching. Total cost about £13 - cheap & cheerful. Is it reliable? I only fitted new points, diamond & switches 6 years ago after the previous ones had been installed for almost 30 years! They have not let me down. These are the only polarity switches on my DCC layout with a total of 30 points. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 Ah....yes Something to think about too... I think that reduces flexibility with routing but, it's a "proper" engineering solution. I like the juicer idea but, that is engineering a deliberate fault into the system... Another issue is that after some study, I think the NCE Power cab pro may still trip before the juicer. I read something about needing a resistor between the frog and Hex juicer... Right... Even more thinking then..just when I thought I'd sorted it! Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I would never use an autoreverser (which is what a frog juicer would be doing in this situation) unless it was absolutely necessary. I have never had to use one so could not recommend one. You have already had trouble caused by using this type of device, and since it can be avoided in your situation I think it is best too. If you want me to recommend something use a 3-way switch to control the points so that a conflicting route cannot be set. The three ways are:- 1. both points straight, 2. top point straight and bottom point diverging, 3. both diverging. This makes it possible to use a switch attached to either of the points to control the crossing frog polarities. How are you operating your points? do you have motors on them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 Suzie, I'm using seep point motors using them to power the point frogs. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 Right..... I think I've cobbled together a solution drawn from your ideas. Old school style using a white board..! I'm going to use components that I've ready got so if it goes terribly wrong...it won't have cost me anything. I will use one set of points powered by Seeps and their built-in accessory switch (bottom right on image), to power/control both frogs on the crossing. The left hand point will just look after it's own frog. Now, the right hand point's accessory switch will feed its frog and the furthest frog of the crossing. I will use another Seep motor wired to the motor on the same point but will wire the accessory switch in the opposite way to feed the nearest frog of the crossing. I think, Suzie, that's kind of what you were suggesting earlier in the thread. Again thanks for the advise everyone, Jim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 That should do it. Great that you can use things that you have to hand. Just one thing, the seep that is not attached to a point must have an over-centre spring to hold it in place or it will probably bounce. I think that the PM4 is the one you will need. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewlisle Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I would never use an autoreverser (which is what a frog juicer would be doing in this situation) unless it was absolutely necessary. I have never had to use one so could not recommend one. You have already had trouble caused by using this type of device, and since it can be avoided in your situation I think it is best too. If you want me to recommend something use a 3-way switch to control the points so that a conflicting route cannot be set. The three ways are:- 1. both points straight, 2. top point straight and bottom point diverging, 3. both diverging. This makes it possible to use a switch attached to either of the points to control the crossing frog polarities. How are you operating your points? do you have motors on them? Suzie/Jim, I still think you are both over complicating the wiring/switching arrangements. Jim, my junction is exactly the same as yours. With reference to your latest drawing, my left hand point works completely independant of the diamond. I can have a train going over this point taking the LH track & at the same time a train can be coming down the other track, crossing the diamond & joining the otherline via the RH point. Remember, in my comment number 16 I said that the two Peco switches are attached to the RH Peco point motor to control the polarity of the diamond. Total cost about £13 instead of the cost of two Seep point motors &/or £62 for a Hexjuicer. This still makes the polarity of the diamond frogs controlled automatically by the RH point motor. I would never rely on a manual switch to switch polarity as my diamond gives access from my mainline terminus on to my double track main line representing the WCML! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 It is nice to have the interlocking, but not essential. My suggestion was for the switches that control the point motors (I was assuming Tortoise of similar)- probably need a diode matrix in practice since seeps are being used and the three positions will instead just be four buttons for the four routes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 Ah... Good point! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 I have found a self-latching Seep PL-4 motor in amongst my stash of point motors! That would do the job as the second accessory switch I hope....? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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