Portishead Station Site Decided

[Andy Kirkham]

http://www.n-somerset.gov.uk/News/Pages/Portishead-railway-station-location-decided.aspx

[Captain Kernow]

A decision!

 

That's nice.

[jonny777]

Sadly, 2 years on, the costs are said to have ballooned to £175million

 

And this to upgrade a freight line, plus reinstate a short section of disused track.

 

http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/story/2017-03-09/fears-for-portishead-rail-line-as-it-triples-in-cost/

[Captain Kernow]

Sadly, 2 years on, the costs are said to have ballooned to £175million

 

And this to upgrade a freight line, plus reinstate a short section of disused track.

 

 

I've heard much talk recently with former colleagues in a TOC of NR project costs spiraling out of control because Project Managers and the like just don't understand basic stuff, and try to gold-plate everything, so sadly, I'm not too surprised by this news. Tavistock is another one that's spiraled out of control and is, in my personal view, rather at risk as well.

[28XX]

Today's Britain. Gold Plate everything. 13 weeks to build a bell-mouth to serve a trading estate. Well into a third year to widen less than a mile of road to dual carriageway.

[Rivercider]

Sadly, 2 years on, the costs are said to have ballooned to £175million

 

And this to upgrade a freight line, plus reinstate a short section of disused track.

 

http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/story/2017-03-09/fears-for-portishead-rail-line-as-it-triples-in-cost/

I was just watching the BBC Points West article, all very disappointing.

 

I wonder how much the new bridge seen in the background at Ashton being built for the MetroBus route has cost?

 

cheers

[jonny777]

I was just watching the BBC Points West article, all very disappointing.

 

I wonder how much the new bridge seen in the background at Ashton being built for the MetroBus route has cost?

 

cheers

 

Yes, and all that expense just to get from Long Ashton P&R to Cumberland Road 1 minute faster.

[GordonC]

This seems to be happening a lot. I saw recently the A556 link road from M56 to M6 cost was £192m .... for a four mile dual-carriageway road!! Really cant believe the sums of money being spent on some of these transport projects now

[D854_Tiger]

This seems to be happening a lot. I saw recently the A556 link road from M56 to M6 cost was £192m .... for a four mile dual-carriageway road!! Really cant believe the sums of money being spent on some of these transport projects now

 

Elf and safety plays a large part nowadays and you can't really knock that or least find anyone in their right mind that would dare to put their name to any kind of rollback of it.

 

The planning process is also very expensive but what else can you expect in a crowded democracy.

 

Then public sector cost escalation can also be put down to politicians and civil servants finding new, mostly rubbish and highly expensive ways to do things, in the hope a grateful nation, without a pot to **** in, will give up asking them to do those things.

 

Light rail suffered a lot from that kind of thing, designed to ensure the projects mostly never happened, stuff like including anticipated lost fuel tax revenue because drivers might leave their cars at home as a cost on the project.

 

Then once established these things become the norm but you do wish they could get in one of the heritage track gangs to do the job for them at a fraction of the price.

 

What also baffles me are prices quoted for projects like the Leicester Burton line, that have effectively killed it off, when there is already an active railway there (just) that, as recently as last week, even had a passenger train running over it.

 

I believe exactly the same situation exists for the Poritshead line, all it would take is some platforms and some kind of service, maybe not a Rolls Royce one, could be up and running.

[jonny777]

This seems to be happening a lot. I saw recently the A556 link road from M56 to M6 cost was £192m .... for a four mile dual-carriageway road!! Really cant believe the sums of money being spent on some of these transport projects now

 

 

I believe we are now in a right wing government, where only vast profiteering companies with dodgy connections to the establishment will get contracts.

 

By dodgy connections - I mean handshakes.

Edited March 10, 2017 by jonny777

[Glorious NSE]

I believe exactly the same situation exists for the Poritshead line, all it would take is some platforms and some kind of service, maybe not a Rolls Royce one, could be up and running.

Depends, given the line was reinstated specifically for freight, I don't think the capacity is there to run freights between the regular passenger trains, unless your passenger trains are very infrequent. (And I don't see the point in running a very infrequent passenger service when in this case it needs a frequent one...)

 

OTOH, given the freight was mostly coal trains, which have mostly evaporated....

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

This seems to be happening a lot. I saw recently the A556 link road from M56 to M6 cost was £192m .... for a four mile dual-carriageway road!! Really cant believe the sums of money being spent on some of these transport projects now

 

Not too difficult to build up sums like that - first about 5 successive lots of consultants to 'review' the project  (it cost the local councils £500 per day for me to do the third review of the second set of proposals for the Ebbw Vale line reopening and that's more than 10 years ago).  Then the various engineering consultants, the railway train planning consultant, then the actual design.  Then the ecological impact study, the 'stakeholder' comsultations and what have you in order to arrive at an agreed scheme (you hope).

 

Next stage is t cost what you intend to do - or rather re-cost the already estimated costs and add a tolerance factor to the estimates - probably + 20% maybe a bit less, quite likely a lot more.  The actual work itself also costs a few bob to say the very least - 12":1ft scale pointwork doesn't come from Peco and a simple ordinary turnout was costing half a million £s a decade or more ago and that's without the S&T cost so once you start building in loops and the signalling for them to start adding loadsa design costs, a load more to buy the bits and pieces and a third lot of dosh to pay some to install it all after you've paid someone else to clear the site, put in drainage, lay bottom ballast and get it to a suitable standard for track laying.  And plain line track was costing £1 million per mile far longer back than a decade ago

 

The only thing which has surprised me about it all so far was that the original estimate was so low!

[jonny777]

Depends, given the line was reinstated specifically for freight, I don't think the capacity is there to run freights between the regular passenger trains, unless your passenger trains are very infrequent. (And I don't see the point in running a very infrequent passenger service when in this case it needs a frequent one...)

 

OTOH, given the freight was mostly coal trains, which have mostly evaporated....

 

 

 

 

Why?

 

How many minutes are needed between a half hourly passenger service?

 

[jonny777]

Not too difficult to build up sums like that - first about 5 successive lots of consultants to 'review' the project  (it cost the local councils £500 per day for me to do the third review of the second set of proposals for the Ebbw Vale line reopening and that's more than 10 years ago).  Then the various engineering consultants, the railway train planning consultant, then the actual design.  Then the ecological impact study, the 'stakeholder' comsultations and what have you in order to arrive at an agreed scheme (you hope).

 

Next stage is t cost what you intend to do - or rather re-cost the already estimated costs and add a tolerance factor to the estimates - probably + 20% maybe a bit less, quite likely a lot more.  The actual work itself also costs a few bob to say the very least - 12":1ft scale pointwork doesn't come from Peco and a simple ordinary turnout was costing half a million £s a decade or more ago and that's without the S&T cost so once you start building in loops and the signalling for them to start adding loadsa design costs, a load more to buy the bits and pieces and a third lot of dosh to pay some to install it all after you've paid someone else to clear the site, put in drainage, lay bottom ballast and get it to a suitable standard for track laying.  And plain line track was costing £1 million per mile far longer back than a decade ago

 

The only thing which has surprised me about it all so far was that the original estimate was so low!

 

Complete b0ll0ccks.

 

Try running any kind of service to a simple platform with a vast car park.

Edited March 10, 2017 by jonny777

[Glorious NSE]

Complete b0ll0ccks.

 

Try running any kind of service to a simple platform with a vast car park.

 

But the line doesn't go to the station, or past the station, it goes into the docks, which isn't very handy if you live in the town.

 

To get the train to that simple platform you need to put in points and signals, and build more track. And if you want to run a regular service (and running a train only really makes sense here if you do) you probably need to do more than that as well...

 

How many minutes are needed between a half hourly passenger service?

 

Depends what your linespeed is, and how long it takes to clear that single line.

 

Looking at it, there's times in tonight (though in practice it's cancelled) for a car train to Mossend. That's timed at 17 minutes from Portbury terminal stop board to Ashton Jcn

 

If you want a half hourly passenger train, then you will have four passenger train movements (two headed West, two headed East) plus that freight along the single line in 60 minutes.

 

If it takes you 17 minutes to get from the junction at Portbury to Ashton Jcn then your single track is occupied for 85 minutes out of 60.

 

A passenger train might be a bit more nimble, but IIRC there was supposed to be an intermediate station as well? 

 

So, it's not just as simple as bunging a platform up and running a train. The scheme includes a junction to get the line into Portishead, that's pretty much unavoidable, and it included a passing loop which I think is probably necessary to run the service they wanted to run.

 

 

 

 

 

[Corbs]

Someone was saying its made difficult as the original line had a signal box and passing loop in the middle of the line, south of Pill.

I believe Metrobus was mostly funded from a specific grant.

[D854_Tiger]

Not too difficult to build up sums like that - first about 5 successive lots of consultants to 'review' the project  (it cost the local councils £500 per day for me to do the third review of the second set of proposals for the Ebbw Vale line reopening and that's more than 10 years ago).  Then the various engineering consultants, the railway train planning consultant, then the actual design.  Then the ecological impact study, the 'stakeholder' comsultations and what have you in order to arrive at an agreed scheme (you hope).

 

Next stage is t cost what you intend to do - or rather re-cost the already estimated costs and add a tolerance factor to the estimates - probably + 20% maybe a bit less, quite likely a lot more.  The actual work itself also costs a few bob to say the very least - 12":1ft scale pointwork doesn't come from Peco and a simple ordinary turnout was costing half a million £s a decade or more ago and that's without the S&T cost so once you start building in loops and the signalling for them to start adding loadsa design costs, a load more to buy the bits and pieces and a third lot of dosh to pay some to install it all after you've paid someone else to clear the site, put in drainage, lay bottom ballast and get it to a suitable standard for track laying.  And plain line track was costing £1 million per mile far longer back than a decade ago

 

The only thing which has surprised me about it all so far was that the original estimate was so low!

 

 

It's called watching one's back.

 

It ensures anyone in a decision making roll can point to some review, consultation or study to justify their decisions, made entirely in accordance with the laid down guidelines they must always follow to the letter.

 

That way they can't be blamed when anything goes belly up.

 

Though it does beg the rather bleeding obvious question as to why you would ever employ anybody in a decision making roll that never involves making any actual decisions but does involve paying them accordingly for all the responsibility.

 

I've experienced a lot of that, when dealing with the NHS, finding any non-clinical job with an actual name on it is near impossible, as is getting anyone to make a decision (except can't be done) from someone who has invariably learned the hard way that it very rarely pays to take on the responsibility for doing so.

 

The black art of survival in some of these organisations seems to be not to get noticed because, if you are ever noticed, you've invariably set yourself up to take blame.

[D854_Tiger]

But the line doesn't go to the station, or past the station, it goes into the docks, which isn't very handy if you live in the town.

 

To get the train to that simple platform you need to put in points and signals, and build more track. And if you want to run a regular service (and running a train only really makes sense here if you do) you probably need to do more than that as well...

 

Depends what your linespeed is, and how long it takes to clear that single line.

 

Looking at it, there's times in tonight (though in practice it's cancelled) for a car train to Mossend. That's timed at 17 minutes from Portbury terminal stop board to Ashton Jcn

 

If you want a half hourly passenger train, then you will have four passenger train movements (two headed West, two headed East) plus that freight along the single line in 60 minutes.

 

If it takes you 17 minutes to get from the junction at Portbury to Ashton Jcn then your single track is occupied for 85 minutes out of 60.

 

A passenger train might be a bit more nimble, but IIRC there was supposed to be an intermediate station as well? 

 

So, it's not just as simple as bunging a platform up and running a train. The scheme includes a junction to get the line into Portishead, that's pretty much unavoidable, and it included a passing loop which I think is probably necessary to run the service they wanted to run.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is worth pointing out that the number of trains along the branch so far this week has been precisely two.

[Glorious NSE]

It is worth pointing out that the number of trains along the branch so far this week has been precisely two.

Hence my comment in post #11

 

But that wasn't the case when the scheme was designed, and whilst freight traffic is minimal today there needs to be some kind of allowance for running freight in the future other than to start cancelling passenger trains to fit them back in.

 

Even more so in this particular case, as the main reason it's seen as achievable to have a passenger service in the first place is that freight traffic funded the reopening of most of the branch!

 

 

 

[burgundy]

If anyone is interested in the published information, there is data about the Winterstoke road flyover and the Ashton Avenue swing bridge on the TravelWest website.

I am curious about the rather exaggerated height of the new flyover on the Winterstoke Road. It is described as clearing the railway by 7.2m; does that imply future proofing against the possible overhead electrification of the branch?

Best wishes

Eric  

[raymw]

The few people they asked, seemed to think that the possible hourly timetable wouldn't work, and they 'wanted' a 30 minute one. However, I would have thought that maybe mid morning and mid afternoon there would be few passengers. They could have an half hourly service most of the day, if needed, and with longer gaps to allow the few freight trains to rumble too and fro mid morning/afternoon. Basically, they don't want to do it.

Edited March 10, 2017 by raymw

[DavidB]

Complete b0ll0ccks.

 

Try running any kind of service to a simple platform with a vast car park.

Mike has done this stuff for real many times. Why do you think his comments are complete b0ll0ccks?

 

David

[Rivercider]

I think folk get cynical as there is a large amount of frustration locally about this project, and many other projects which seem to take for ever to get done.

 

As long ago as the 1970s there was serious congestion at times from Portishead to Bristol (presumably if these commuters had used the train 10 years earlier the train service would have survived).

Various transports schemes have been proposed over the years (Avon Metro anyone?), and so far not much has been achieved.

I guess a few years ago there might have been the money, but no will, to get the job done, now there is the will, but no (not enough) money,

 

I was looking forward to making the effort to travel on the new line on the day it reopened, I still hope to if I live that long ( aged 57 and a half)

 

cheers

[caradoc]

Hence my comment in post #11

 

But that wasn't the case when the scheme was designed, and whilst freight traffic is minimal today there needs to be some kind of allowance for running freight in the future other than to start cancelling passenger trains to fit them back in.

 

Even more so in this particular case, as the main reason it's seen as achievable to have a passenger service in the first place is that freight traffic funded the reopening of most of the branch!

 

 

 

 

When the Shields Junction-Paisley Canal line re-opened in 1990 it was initially single track throughout allowing just an hourly service. Even at that level, there was a timetabled gap in the evening service to allow the Grangemouth-Hawkhead oil train to run. Not infrequently this train was late, resulting in not only the planned gap in the service but unplanned cancellations as well so that the freight could run. This is why sufficient capacity has to be provided from the outset.

I would also say that to be competitive in today's world any decent rail service to a major city has to be (at least) half-hourly.  

[SwissRailPassion]

The Borders Railway involved far more work and cost around £100M for every ten miles. It included a complete rebuild of the solum, several new stations, many new bridges, culverts and tunnel work. Port bury is heading for almost double that cost.

 

Is it because it is in England?