Pre-Grouping Coaches

[PaulR]

As a long-time modeller of the Furness Railway in 4mm scale EM Gauge (that's another story in itself), I try to find short cuts to my modelling in order to produce acceptable results. Years ago I had Trevor Charlton etch some coach sides for me in Zinc and they have been lying in a draw for a very long time.There were so many of them that it completely put me off from using them.So recently I thought about the old PC Models coach kits.They used litho offset printing techniques, which are fine for large printing runs but very expensive if you do not need many of each design, so I decided to use modern technology and have them made on acetate sheet, used for overhead projection slides normally. I am no graphic designer so I found a firm of designers and printers locally and commissioned most of the Furness diagrams together with some from the LNWR, Midland, L & Y, North Stafford and Maryport & Carlisle lines in order to supply colourful excursion trains.

 

Some I had printed on the firm's laser printer, in both card and acetate and then I discovered inkjet capable acetate sheets, so could print the files at home.Now for items like full brakes and mail vans, card is a very good medium, as printing on it gives a high class finish.Acetate is translucent, so the final colour shade depends very much what you back it with.For white panelling, I used Trimline tape, which leaves no glue marks; you merely stick it on the reverse side of the acetate. White also brings out the lovely Furness shade of blue (ultramarine) and is fine with the LNWR as well.The other liveries needed a bit more experimentation to get the shade right, although the L & Y livery with its lack of panelling and lining is easy.

 

What I did achieve was coaches which included all lining, crests, vents, doors and windows already built-in.Door handles and grab handles need to be added the normal way as I think having them printed as PC did detracts from the finish. You could also add ventilator bonnets but I think this is unnecessary. The wonderful Ratio 48' chassis helped enormously with the bogie coaches while the 6 -wheelers are a mix of  Alan Gibson (formerly Micro-Rail) and butchered Ratio GWR 4-wheel chassis extended and fitted with the centre wheels flangeless; you don't spot it unless you are looking for it !

[mikeandnel]

Hello Paul

This sounds interesting. Any chance of some pictures and a link for the printable acetate sheet please?

Michael dJS

[PaulR]

Hello Paul

This sounds interesting. Any chance of some pictures and a link for the printable acetate sheet please?

Michael dJS

Michael, There are 2 kinds of acetate sheet that are relevant: one for Inkjet printers and one for laser printers. The inkjet one, which I use at home, has one side roughened  as a key for the inkjet, otherwise it runs.Guess how I found that one out! There are vast numbers of suppliers out there; I used photopaperdirect.com. I haven't any pictures as yet but I will post some up on the forum when I have. I am also willing to sell any of mine to anyone interested, which will help offset my costs. I found that sitting with the designer and directing him was more effective than by email,

 

Yours

Paul

[ThePurplePrimer]

This sounds interesting

 

I would also like to see some pictures

[PaulR]

Rob,

Thanks for your interest. Now I will have to take some photos! This project has also shown me that I have a heck of a lot of coaches to build but I would stand no chance without this project. It's a bit arsy-versy, starting with the finish first and building it backwards, almost.

[davecom]

Hello Paul,

 

I would also be extremely interested to see the results of your efforts, being A) a pre-group modeller and B) a great fan of printed side coaches especially the P C range.

 

I would also be interested in purchasing some LNWR, Midland and North Staffs designs.

 

Keep up the good work!

 

Dave W

[PaulR]

Hello Paul,

 

I would also be extremely interested to see the results of your efforts, being A) a pre-group modeller and B) a great fan of printed side coaches especially the P C range.

 

I would also be interested in purchasing some LNWR, Midland and North Staffs designs.

 

Keep up the good work!

 

Dave W

Hello Dave,

I would be happy to sell you some printed sides.They are £12.75 a pair plus £1.00 p and p.The LNWR sides are 5 cmpt  6 wheel 3rd, as are the N Staffs, the Midland are the same plus 3rd saloons. Contact me on plroun@aol.com

 

Paul

[PaulR]

Here are a couple of photos of work in progress: one is a Furness Royal Mail Van in card and the other a Furness 8 compt all 3rd bogie coach on a ratio 48' chassis

 

Paul

[sp1]

Very nice and way out of my skill league! One of the stumbling blocks to pre-grouping coaches has always been reproducing the complicated liveries - I suspect there might be a market for someone combining your method with a 'Cameo' cutter to produce coloured overlays to give depth to the panelling (one of the failings of the Hornby GWR clerestories (the longer ones) which are superbly printed but have no depth (just to give an example).

[PaulR]

Very nice and way out of my skill league! One of the stumbling blocks to pre-grouping coaches has always been reproducing the complicated liveries - I suspect there might be a market for someone combining your method with a 'Cameo' cutter to produce coloured overlays to give depth to the panelling (one of the failings of the Hornby GWR clerestories (the longer ones) which are superbly printed but have no depth (just to give an example).

These were done using my own pre-printed sides, with artwork done for me by a graphic designer

[PaulR]

Hello Dave,

I would be happy to sell you some printed sides.They are £12.75 a pair plus £1.00 p and p.The LNWR sides are 5 cmpt  6 wheel 3rd, as are the N Staffs, the Midland are the same plus 3rd saloons. Contact me on plroun@aol.com

 

Paul

I also produce L & Y 5 compt 3rds

[LNWR lives on]

HI Paul,

 

Have you got a photo of the LNWR sides please you could post?

 

Cheers

 

David

[PaulR]

Some more pictures, this time of a Furness saloon, showing my rather crude methods of construction

[Jol Wilkinson]

Very nice and way out of my skill league! One of the stumbling blocks to pre-grouping coaches has always been reproducing the complicated liveries - I suspect there might be a market for someone combining your method with a 'Cameo' cutter to produce coloured overlays to give depth to the panelling (one of the failings of the Hornby GWR clerestories (the longer ones) which are superbly printed but have no depth (just to give an example).

LNWR, MR and LSWR coaches (there may have been others) with pre-printed sides were available for a long time from PC. They still appear regularly on ebay. The later kits (in the vacuum formed pack) were easier to build although the etched bogies can be a bit fiddly. However, they lack the sense of panelling depth provided by moulded or etched kits.

 

Complex livery isn't too difficult in 4mm given an airbush and a decent Bow pen. The pre-group coach colours are available from several sources including Phoenix Precision Paints (enamel) and Chris Wesson (cellulose). There are many etched kits available covering the per group era and main companies from Roxey, Wizard/51L, David Geen, London Road Models, Stevenson Carriages, etc.

 

Ian Rathbone's WSP book on painting and lining covers the topic admirably. However you can cheat and use the technique I follow, where you add the lining on top of the full width of the beading and then run the body colour down the centre of that (illustrated in MRJ 52). It isn't a difficult skill to acquire, provided you have a decent bowpen (Haff still make them). I say not too difficult on the grounds that, if I can do it, so can most people.

[PaulR]

LNWR, MR and LSWR coaches (there may have been others) with pre-printed sides were available for a long time from PC. They still appear regularly on ebay. The later kits (in the vacuum formed pack) were easier to build although the etched bogies can be a bit fiddly. However, they lack the sense of panelling depth provided by moulded or etched kits.

 

Complex livery isn't too difficult in 4mm given an airbush and a decent Bow pen. The pre-group coach colours are available from several sources including Phoenix Precision Paints (enamel) and Chris Wesson (cellulose). There are many etched kits available covering the per group era and main companies from Roxey, Wizard/51L, David Geen, London Road Models, Stevenson Carriages, etc.

 

Ian Rathbone's WSP book on painting and lining covers the topic admirably. However you can cheat and use the technique I follow, where you add the lining on top of the full width of the beading and then run the body colour down the centre of that (illustrated in MRJ 52). It isn't a difficult skill to acquire, provided you have a decent bowpen (Haff still make them). I say not too difficult on the grounds that, if I can do it, so can most people.

You may well be right but if you have many coaches to build, as I have, comprising nearly all the FR diagrams plus the LNWR, L & Y, Midland, M & C and N. Staffs, pre-printed signs make the job much easier. Add in the crests,numbers, class denotation, ventilator bonnets and specialist coaching stock such as mail vans then the mass production aided by finished sides becomes possible. I find my sides fool the eye in 4 mm scale as far as panelling is concerned, relief is supplied by the door and grab handles plus handrails that need to be added plus the roof ventilators . If I had to paint and line every coach that I intend to build I would not live long enough. Regarding the PC sides, my only criticism of them is that they have pre-printed door and grab handles but again, this suits their many admirers, of which I am one.

[LNWR lives on]

One of the things you can do is get some wire and make up door and grab handles and then fit these to the PC coach sides to add a bit of relief

[Jol Wilkinson]

You may well be right but if you have many coaches to build, as I have, comprising nearly all the FR diagrams plus the LNWR, L & Y, Midland, M & C and N. Staffs, pre-printed signs make the job much easier. Add in the crests,numbers, class denotation, ventilator bonnets and specialist coaching stock such as mail vans then the mass production aided by finished sides becomes possible. I find my sides fool the eye in 4 mm scale as far as panelling is concerned, relief is supplied by the door and grab handles plus handrails that need to be added plus the roof ventilators . If I had to paint and line every coach that I intend to build I would not live long enough. Regarding the PC sides, my only criticism of them is that they have pre-printed door and grab handles but again, this suits their many admirers, of which I am one.

I understand the need for speed, but just how many do you need to build? Another area where you could save time is to laser cut the floors, ends, partitions, etc. The artwork is easy to do and costs can be reasonable if you find the right person to do it for you.

 

I imagine you have a large layout in mind to cover all those railways.

[PaulR]

I understand the need for speed, but just how many do you need to build? Another area where you could save time is to laser cut the floors, ends, partitions, etc. The artwork is easy to do and costs can be reasonable if you find the right person to do it for you.

 

I imagine you have a large layout in mind to cover all those railways.

My layout represents Foxfield Junction (FR) in 1912 . Several railways ran excursions up the Coniston branch from there and as I like pre-grouping coaches it gives me a good excuse to run them. I actually use LRM 42' chassis for the FR saloons and Ratio for the rest. I also wanted to replicate the Furness workman's trains and have at least one example of nearly all their diagrams.It is a big projectand probably involves about 50 coaches or maybe even more including foreign stock. The system works for me and produces coaches of a reasonable standard

[PaulR]

More photos, this time an LNWR 5 compt 3rd class 6 -wheeler on an Alan Gibson body with a M & CR No 11 -6 wheeler in the background

[PaulR]

I have been making some Great Northern coaches up from Ian Kirk sides. Using the Precision Paints teak system (2 paints) it has been very easy.The secret is not to put much paint on your brush and to be carefree as you apply it. I will append some photos. In contrast, I have been trying to paint a Furness kit I have had for years and it has been a real bitch. That is why I prefer my printed sides. LNWR modeller above, aka Jol Wilkinson, has made the painting of etched coach sides sound too easy by far, but then he does the artwork for London Road Models

[CKPR]

My FR and M&CR coaches are all from Trevor Charlton etchings and I used the Jim Whittaker 'splodge' technique for painting all but one of them. Basically, use a Halfords rattle can for the basic colour and then mix up very dilute Humbrol enamel white and splodge it onto the panels and let capillary action do the rest. You'll need to do 3-4 splodge coats to cover the body colour but it usually works. The exception was my last M&CR six wheeler that I did in the pre-1908 varnished teak livery just for a change and used a base coat of Humbrol Trainer Yellow (from a rattle can) followed by Humbrol 62 Tan and then a wiped off coat of matt black and  a final coat of Johnson's Klear. I'm pretty pleased with them even if I say so myself (I really must start using my camera to photograph things rather than relying on the MacBook...)

[PaulR]

My FR and M&CR coaches are all from Trevor Charlton etchings and I used the Jim Whittaker 'splodge' technique for painting all but one of them. Basically, use a Halfords rattle can for the basic colour and then mix up very dilute Humbrol enamel white and splodge it onto the panels and let capillary action do the rest. You'll need to do 3-4 splodge coats to cover the body colour but it usually works. The exception was my last M&CR six wheeler that I did in the pre-1908 varnished teak livery just for a change and used a base coat of Humbrol Trainer Yellow (from a rattle can) followed by Humbrol 62 Tan and then a wiped off coat of matt black and  a final coat of Johnson's Klear. I'm pretty pleased with them even if I say so myself (I really must start using my camera to photograph things rather than relying on the MacBook...)

Thanks very much for this tip. Hopefully the kit I am painting the old way (dia 20) will be the only one. Years ago I painted the railmotor with splodge technique and HMRS blue lining. This time I am using trimline and precision FR white, although any white would do.I didn't know the M & C livery was teak prior to 1908: your stock is very impressive; I must try Klear myself for the finish. Incidentally, I like your pictures (elsewhere on RMWeb) of the Sharpie from Peter K etches. I have 2 of these but chickened out of making them, getting them made pfofessionally, although I did make up a tender for the Sharp 2-4-0, which uses the same tender 

[Jol Wilkinson]

I have been making some Great Northern coaches up from Ian Kirk sides. Using the Precision Paints teak system (2 paints) it has been very easy.The secret is not to put much paint on your brush and to be carefree as you apply it. I will append some photos. In contrast, I have been trying to paint a Furness kit I have had for years and it has been a real bitch. That is why I prefer my printed sides. LNWR modeller above, aka Jol Wilkinson, has made the painting of etched coach sides sound too easy by far, but then he does the artwork for London Road Models

Paul,

 

I suggest that painting pre-grouping carriage livery isn't actually too difficult, on the basis that if I can do it, it can't be too hard.

 

As for techniques, it does rather depend on having decent tools (airbrush, lining pen, decent fine brushes) and using the most suitable materials. I've just started on  a new batch of LNWR carriages and found that my old stock of paint isn't working well so have put things on hold until some new PPP paint arrives.

 

Jol

[PaulR]

Paul,

 

I suggest that painting pre-grouping carriage livery isn't actually too difficult, on the basis that if I can do it, it can't be too hard.

 

As for techniques, it does rather depend on having decent tools (airbrush, lining pen, decent fine brushes) and using the most suitable materials. I've just started on  a new batch of LNWR carriages and found that my old stock of paint isn't working well so have put things on hold until some new PPP paint arrives.

 

Jol

Jol,

Perhaps you can show me your painting techniques.I live in Suffolk

[CKPR]

Paul,

 

I suggest that painting pre-grouping carriage livery isn't actually too difficult, on the basis that if I can do it, it can't be too hard.

 

As for techniques, it does rather depend on having decent tools (airbrush, lining pen, decent fine brushes) and using the most suitable materials. I've just started on  a new batch of LNWR carriages and found that my old stock of paint isn't working well so have put things on hold until some new PPP paint arrives.

 

Jol

I would endorse Jol's point about the importance of using fresh paint. It's cheap enough to buy a new tin of say Humbrol white for each new job and then use the opened tin for general mixing jobs, a bit like the old white lead that coach painters used in the pre-grouping days (There's a marvellous description of old time coach painting in David Jenkinson's book on 20th century railway carriages).