AdamfromIOW Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Hi all, I've been working on my Lima 121 bubble car and it would seem the motor is... struggling, to say the least. Does anyond have any advice/tips for servicing and getting it to run smoother? Alternatively, any suggestions for a decent alternative motor? The Hornby HST ones spring to mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon G Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 What I have done with a number of similar Lima 'pancake' motors is to replace the front face plate and armature with a can motor out of a CD drive - you may have seen them on RMWEB described as Susumotors. I fit a Lima spur gear onto the susumotor shaft, and then fit the motor into the pancake motor frame and secure it centrally, to locate into the existing Lima gears. If you do this correctly, it will definitely improve the performance of the original, and give better slow speed control than the original, and also a suitably high top speed. I haven't yet tried to see how they run with a DCC chip, but will give it a go some time. I can provide you with a photo of the CD motor in a pancake frame if that would help. Also, having scrapped a few old CD drives, I also have a supply of working motors, already fitted with a spur gear, if you are interested - or you can buy them on ebay for £4.50. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold SHMD Posted May 23, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 23, 2015 There are some very good videos on youtube regarding servicing old pancake motors. I advise you take a look. With some pretty simple TLC (all demonstrated in the vids) your Lima Loco will soon be running again. Kev. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAF96 Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) Simon I have taken around a dozen old PC CD/DVD drives apart in search of these elusive pancake motor replacements and all the ones I have seen are real cheap and nasty things without a proper can. They all seemed to comprise a tatty bit of pcb mounting the armature with an assortment of flimsy magnet arrangements. None looked as if they would go anywhere near replacing the innards of a ringfield motor, so they were all reassembled to their drives and disposed of. Ali-Baba is a wonderful source of motors but finding them in a suitable diam and thickness is a weary task, although they are typically very cheap. Rob Edited May 27, 2015 by RAFHAAA96 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Have a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_66Yq4NkgE If that does not get your lima pancake running nicely nothing will! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigherb Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Or you can just buy a ready to fit replacement motor from. http://www.diesel-trains.co.uk/Lima_replacement_motor_kits.html They are easy to fit but as they still use the original gear train it doesn't make them appreciably quieter. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted May 28, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 28, 2015 (edited) Or you can just buy a ready to fit replacement motor from. http://www.diesel-trains.co.uk/Lima_replacement_motor_kits.html They are easy to fit but as they still use the original gear train it doesn't make them appreciably quieter. I think someone used to do a replacement ringfield and armature which was a straight replacement in the original case, again using the original gears I just replaced the complete bogie with a Black Beetle and used the original bogie frames in my DRC. Keith Edited May 28, 2015 by melmerby Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigherb Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 I think someone used to do a replacement ringfield and armature which was a straight replacement in the original case, again using the original gears Yes there was but from other threads on this forum I believe they have ceased trading. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon G Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Simon I have taken around a dozen old PC CD/DVD drives apart in search of these elusive pancake motor replacements and all the ones I have seen are real cheap and nasty things without a proper can. They all seemed to comprise a tatty bit of pcb mounting the armature with an assortment of flimsy magnet arrangements. None looked as if they would go anywhere near replacing the innards of a ringfield motor, so they were all reassembled to their drives and disposed of. Ali-Baba is a wonderful source of motors but finding them in a suitable diam and thickness is a weary task, although they are typically very cheap. Rob Or you can just buy a ready to fit replacement motor from. http://www.diesel-trains.co.uk/Lima_replacement_motor_kits.html They are easy to fit but as they still use the original gear train it doesn't make them appreciably quieter. The motors used by diesel.trains.co.uk are the same as the ones I use out of CD drives. The motors are the ones used to motor and CD/DVD drawer in and out. Picture attached showing about 6 motors: I hope that this helps! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold SHMD Posted May 28, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 28, 2015 There are CD drives and there are CD drives! The DVD/CD drives found in modern laptops and desktops do indeed have thin PCB based motors. The DVD machines you find under telly's have far more robust mechanisms - especially the older ones. Kev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted May 29, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 29, 2015 (edited) The motors used by diesel.trains.co.uk are the same as the ones I use out of CD drives. The motors are the ones used to motor and CD/DVD drawer in and out. Picture attached showing about 6 motors: P1030889.JPG I hope that this helps! They look just like the motors used in the TT300 point motor: They are very low current. Keith EDIT the Mabuchi RF300CH is unsuitable for a loco as it has a maximum continuous rating of 5v And the Mitsumi M25E-4 series are rated at 3v Edited May 31, 2015 by melmerby Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAF96 Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Why doesn't copy and paste work...grr - diesel-tr~~motor kits... Reasonable prices but they don't appear to do one for a Class 56.. ~Still looking at DVD drives - pc drives only seem to have the useless motors not the proper can motors pictured. Need to find a proper DVD player somewhere to peek inside.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted May 31, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) ~Still looking at DVD drives - pc drives only seem to have the useless motors not the proper can motors pictured. Need to find a proper DVD player somewhere to peek inside.. AFAIK It will only be used for the drawer mechanism as the spin motor needs to be speed controlled and the head (laser) is moved in a completely different fashion. This is what you are looking at: http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp/cgi-bin/catalog/e_catalog.cgi?CAT_ID=rf_300fa They are very low current and low voltage (typically 3-6v) so I am a little puzzled as their use on 12v!!! Keith EDIT Just had a (scrap) Panasonic AV DVD rewriter apart . The tray motor is one of these small motors shown. The spin motor is a direct drive on the Disc and the head/laser motor is a stepper which is similar to that in a 3 1/2" floppy disk drive Edited May 31, 2015 by melmerby Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium mezzoman253 Posted May 31, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) I post this link in good faith, as I do not know whether these will do the job or are too large. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LIMA-MOTOR-REPLACEMENT-/251975859382?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3aaaee7cb6 HTH Rob Edited May 31, 2015 by mezzoman253 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted May 31, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) Just taken a couple of shots of the Panasonic DVD drive for information. I removed the drawer for clarity. The three motors: Turn it over and you can see the tray motor more clearly: (This one is marked MDN3DL3CSF) Hope that helps. Keith EDIT the MDN3 series of motors is rated at just 2v! Edited May 31, 2015 by melmerby 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon G Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 AFAIK It will only be used for the drawer mechanism as the spin motor needs to be speed controlled and the head (laser) is moved in a completely different fashion. This is what you are looking at: http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp/cgi-bin/catalog/e_catalog.cgi?CAT_ID=rf_300fa They are very low current and low voltage (typically 3-6v) so I am a little puzzled as their use on 12v!!! Keith I have used these motors both directly with 12V supplies, and also with 1/2 watt 10 to 20 ohm resistors. The use of the resistors does help to protect the motor and can give improved controllability. As far as I am concerned, I use them on 12V motors because they are there, and it was a challenge! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAF96 Posted June 6, 2015 Share Posted June 6, 2015 That last picture of the innards of a DVD is just what I needed, saves me pulling it apart any further than necessary. I suppose you can get away with these motors on DCC as the voltage applied is not raw 12V DC but a form of pulse width modulated pseudo AC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted June 6, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 6, 2015 That last picture of the innards of a DVD is just what I needed, saves me pulling it apart any further than necessary. I suppose you can get away with these motors on DCC as the voltage applied is not raw 12V DC but a form of pulse width modulated pseudo AC. DCC is 12-15v DC but with a varied "duty cycle" e.g on for 10% off for 90% on for 20% off for 80% etc. I have seen reports of these motors working on up to 30v! Quite what longevity you get is another matter. BTW the are readily available on line at quite low cost. Typically from £1.50 upwards. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamfromIOW Posted June 9, 2015 Author Share Posted June 9, 2015 Cheers for all the feedback chaps. I shall give it a go with the DVD motor and let you know how I get on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
unknown Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) Possibly quite hard to find out but up to what sort of RPM is sufficient to use these DVD drive motors in place of an old pancake? I won't be needing full throttle on a 12ft layout but I do want some controlability of the loco. I see some of the lower voltage ones are rated to around 4000rpm and 6v up to 12500 rpm! That would be a proper screamer. Edited June 9, 2015 by unknown Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted June 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 9, 2015 Hi there, Check out eBay at present as there is a listing for one of the replacement full motor units which feature better control and speed. Not connected - came up in a search for something else totally unrelated! Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Here are the specs for an MDN3 http://www.eminebea.com/en/product/rotary/brushmotor/dc/mdn3.shtml I've found that a lot of CD drives (full PC bay sized) have a second can motor (not a stepper) for head control, frequently one of these http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp/cgi-bin/catalog/e_catalog.cgi?CAT_ID=ff_050sb or http://www.eminebea.com/en/product/rotary/brushmotor/dc/ppn13.shtml Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted June 9, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) There are 12v versions of these motors around, I found one some while back when I was looking up specs. (prior to this thread) I've found that a lot of CD drives (full PC bay sized) have a second can motor (not a stepper) for head control, frequently one of these http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp/cgi-bin/catalog/e_catalog.cgi?CAT_ID=ff_050sb or http://www.eminebea.com/en/product/rotary/brushmotor/dc/ppn13.shtml Adrian I'm surprised they give sufficiently accurate control compared to a stepper! Keith EDIT on the picture I posted the only electronics on the drive were for the focus mechanism, everything else was inthe main part of the DVD recorder. Edited June 9, 2015 by melmerby Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon G Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I've found that a lot of CD drives (full PC bay sized) have a second can motor (not a stepper) for head control, frequently one of these http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp/cgi-bin/catalog/e_catalog.cgi?CAT_ID=ff_050sb or http://www.eminebea.com/en/product/rotary/brushmotor/dc/ppn13.shtml Adrian I have salvaged a couple of these second can motors, but haven't tried to use them yet. Has anyone else found them to be of any use? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I have salvaged a couple of these second can motors, but haven't tried to use them yet. Has anyone else found them to be of any use? I repowered an old Triang-Hornby pannier with one as an experiment. Not something I'd suggest, nor did I repeat the experiment. I'm surprised they give sufficiently accurate control compared to a stepper! They tend to have a gearset with huge reduction ratio. Presumably using a DC motor saves having to have a stepper controller and it probably allows for some error correction. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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