Caledonian Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Ah its good to be back... On page 105 of Power of the Black Fives is a photo taken at Beattock on 3 June 1966, featuring in the background four Seacow/Sealion hoppers in a dark livery with a fair bit of lettering on the left panel, which apprears to be the usual technical stuff about weights and dire warnings not to be used north of John O'Groats, and top right a fairly large GS. Are we still talking black at this date, or olive green, and would the lettering be white under the muck or yellow? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Ah its good to be back... On page 105 of Power of the Black Fives is a photo taken at Beattock on 3 June 1966, featuring in the background four Seacow/Sealion hoppers in a dark livery with a fair bit of lettering on the left panel, which apprears to be the usual technical stuff about weights and dire warnings not to be used north of John O'Groats, and top right a fairly large GS. Are we still talking black at this date, or olive green, and would the lettering be white under the muck or yellow? I'm glad you asked this, because I'm unsure what the introduction date for olive drab was. My guess is they would have been a dusty black with yellow lettering and the olive came into wider use from around 1967, but reference to the corporate livery guidelines suggests that BR didn't foresee too much tinkering with the basic wagon colours; so does this imply that both black and olive were already in use in 1965 when Beeching published these...? I now recognise I've made your situation worse!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waveydavey Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 On page 105 of Power of the Black Fives is a photo taken at Beattock on 3 June 1966, featuring in the background four Seacow/Sealion hoppers in a dark livery with a fair bit of lettering on the left panel, They won't be Seacow/Sealions in 1966 as the first ones were built at Shildon in 1971. More likely they are Walrus so I'd say they'll be in black livery as I think they were built in the 50s. Cheers David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Posted February 23, 2010 Author Share Posted February 23, 2010 They won't be Seacow/Sealions in 1966 as the first ones were built at Shildon in 1971. More likely they are Walrus so I'd say they'll be in black livery as I think they were built in the 50s. Cheers David That was my understanding, but they don't look like the Walruses we have here at Gosforth, even allowing for mods. I assume that the GS stands for general service - or does it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod6 Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 even allowing for mods. Nothing to do with us Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 That was my understanding, but they don't look like the Walruses we have here at Gosforth, even allowing for mods. I assume that the GS stands for general service - or does it? I think the Walrus that the Metro bought were the SR-built ones, which had quite a few differences to the BR-built ones, especially with regard to bogies and design of the body end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Posted February 23, 2010 Author Share Posted February 23, 2010 Thanks for that; I've just had a look on Paul Bartlett's site and the Metro Cammell Walruses are very different from ours; so much so I'm surprised they kept the name. The wagons in the Beattock photo will be Metro Cammell Walruses then and black seems the likliest livery. I'm still curious about that GS marking though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 I'm glad you asked this, because I'm unsure what the introduction date for olive drab was. My guess is they would have been a dusty black with yellow lettering and the olive came into wider use from around 1967, ... I've posted the answer to this several times on RMweb3 and still cant bloody remember for certain without going digging, but I think it was 1962 or possibly 63, although photographic evidence doesnt seem common and it may well have been the later 60s before it appeared in any numbers (lack of new designs in the period and paucity of repaints, I'd suspect). Notwithstanding this, some of the Seacow/Sealion shots in PB's gallery look awfully like black even when nearly new, and IIRC he has amended his heading to accommodate that notion I'm still curious about that GS marking though. 'Glasgow South', at an intelligent guess; the ScR had several area designations for CCE wagons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Sounds like I can retire my trio of Seacowlions then, and it occurs to me that these are currently the only bogie freight stock I actually have! Still, they have made me feel uneasy for some time, so they'll be disposed of to make room for another clutch of Grampus and some Mermaid. A win-win, as one would say, can't have stock that wasn't even built operating in my '68 window. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 I know this has been discussed before, but can't remember the outcome - looking at this Whale photo from PB's site: http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/p2122481.html I can't quite make out if that is olive green or black, if it was black it would indicate that wagons were still being outshopped in that livery in 1966/67. I suspect it may be green, but it is very hard to tell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 I know this has been discussed before, but can't remember the outcome - looking at this Whale photo from PB's site: http://gallery6801.f...t/p2122481.html I can't quite make out if that is olive green or black, if it was black it would indicate that wagons were still being outshopped in that livery in 1966/67. I suspect it may be green, but it is very hard to tell. Right, that's you off me Xhristmas card list... No sooner had I got the trio of Lima Sealioncoos emptied and ready to flog than you post this link. Now the temptation to mate three of these to try and breed a pair of Whales.... I have no idea if they worked on the ScR, but unless someone tells me categorically Whales didn't reach Carlisle and Edinburgh, before tonight's Ch4 film, then I'll be settling down to gut the trio and attempt the pair. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Posted February 23, 2010 Author Share Posted February 23, 2010 'Glasgow South', at an intelligent guess; the ScR had several area designations for CCE wagons. If it does mean Glasgow South (and until anybody says otherwise I'm sticking to it) then I'm definitely on a winner as I've got just the Polmadie locos to haul them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Right, that's you off me Xhristmas card list... No sooner had I got the trio of Lima Sealioncoos emptied and ready to flog than you post this link. Now the temptation to mate three of these to try and breed a pair of Whales.... I have no idea if they worked on the ScR, but unless someone tells me categorically Whales didn't reach Carlisle and Edinburgh, before tonight's Ch4 film, then I'll be settling down to gut the trio and attempt the pair. The general impression left by informed sources (eg Southern Wagons) is that Whales didn't work anywhere - they were an illconcieved extention of a design fatally bastardised by BR, and a repair card waiting to happen. As for reaching Carlisle & Edinburgh , it seems they had difficulty reaching London when dispatched from Meldon (or vice versa) How fast the SReg managed to offload them onto other unsuspecting regions I don't know Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 The general impression left by informed sources (eg Southern Wagons) is that Whales didn't work anywhere - they were an illconcieved extention of a design fatally bastardised by BR, and a repair card waiting to happen. As for reaching Carlisle & Edinburgh , it seems they had difficulty reaching London when dispatched from Meldon (or vice versa) How fast the SReg managed to offload them onto other unsuspecting regions I don't know Most of them ended their days in either the North West or Scotland, but quite how early they went, I wouldn't like to say. Stretching them to accomodate the extra ten tons caused them to flex in the middle, which at best meant the hopper doors were difficult to open, and at worst meant that the frames fractured. The logic behind the design, like that of the Walrus and its antecedents, was rational enough; the SR's only source of hard stone for ballast was in the extreme west of the Railway/Region, and so the wagons to carry it had to be as big as possible, to make the long journey east viable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Most of them ended their days in either the North West or Scotland, but quite how early they went, I wouldn't like to say. Stretching them to accomodate the extra ten tons caused them to flex in the middle, which at best meant the hopper doors were difficult to open, and at worst meant that the frames fractured. The logic behind the design, like that of the Walrus and its antecedents, was rational enough; the SR's only source of hard stone for ballast was in the extreme west of the Railway/Region, and so the wagons to carry it had to be as big as possible, to make the long journey east viable. Not only size, but from the first LSWR designs (central and eastern sections got their ballast from elsewhere before '23 and possibly later) which, ironically, had similar problems and all ended up with large, solid legths of additional steel to keep them in one piece, these big hopper were meant to work at passenger speeds (the original LSWR vehicles were vac' braked too). From what I can recall from SR wagons vol. 4, BR(S) wanted better bogies and electric light over the additional capacity which was offset by lower speed limits set on the Whales. Adam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Right, that's you off me Xhristmas card list... No sooner had I got the trio of Lima Sealioncoos emptied and ready to flog than you post this link. Glad to be of service Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Most of them (Whales) ended their days in either the North West or Scotland, but quite how early they went, I wouldn't like to say. Pretty late on - about the time that Rail Enthusiast was running its wagon profiles and that they started to appear in yellow/grey (so middish 80s) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40044 Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Whales were working in the North West until about 1991. After that, most ended up working off Toton or Peterborough. The last sighting that I can recall was about 1997. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Not only size, but from the first LSWR designs (central and eastern sections got their ballast from elsewhere before '23 and possibly later) which, ironically, had similar problems and all ended up with large, solid legths of additional steel to keep them in one piece, these big hopper were meant to work at passenger speeds (the original LSWR vehicles were vac' braked too). From what I can recall from SR wagons vol. 4, BR(S) wanted better bogies and electric light over the additional capacity which was offset by lower speed limits set on the Whales. Adam From what I saw being dug out during the deep reballasting between Folkestone and Ashford in 1991/2, Eastern Division ballast seemed to consist of (in ascending order):- Copious amounts of loco ash. Shingle from Dungeness. A light top-dressing of granite from Meldon. Old material wasn't removed, causing the rail level to rise over time, making an already tight loading gauge even tighter- in one place they actually dug out a buried length of SER track.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold griffgriff Posted February 24, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 24, 2010 Whales were working in the North West until about 1991. After that, most ended up working off Toton or Peterborough. The last sighting that I can recall was about 1997. ... maybe even later than 1997 I'd say??? - at least there were some numbers in the yards in the 'noughties'. ... and as far as far can go would be the reaction of the former SR... it was ironically the Civil Engineers Dept. who went bonkers over all the damage they did - I believe this lead to speed restrictions being placed upon them - no doubt causing unkind thoughts about their parentage from the Operating Dept. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waveydavey Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 That was my understanding, but they don't look like the Walruses we have here at Gosforth, even allowing for mods. The T&W PTE walruses are very little like how they were when built. A bit like the famous sweeping brush almost everything has been changed. When T&W got the wagons they were rebogied and converted to air brake then at a much later time they were rebodied. The original bodies ended up at the Midland Railway Centre sitting on accomodation bogies as can be seen here Cheers David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Having visited Paul Bartlett's site, I am content that my Lima (ask your dad, younger readers) Seacreatures can portray Walruses convincingly, without much effort required except on correcting the bogies. Three struck from the disposal list pronto. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Posted February 24, 2010 Author Share Posted February 24, 2010 Having visited Paul Bartlett's site, I am content that my Lima (ask your dad, younger readers) Seacreatures can portray Walruses convincingly, without much effort required except on correcting the bogies. Three struck from the disposal list pronto. My view entirely; its amazing what removing the OHL cages and applying a coat of black paint can do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Yes indeed. I'm now trying to restrain myself from sourcing one in bauxite to represent a distressed Gulf red specimen, knowing full well that such a creature probably never existed. Tsk! Why can't I be satisfied with the modest three I started with eludes me. Looking forward to the weathering job, which will mark my first foray back into the dark arts for some years. And if GS was Glasgow South, I wonder what the Edinburgh & Lothians equivalent was. I expect if I label the things 'EL' or more probably EB for 'Edinburgh & Borders' no-one's going to have me arrested, hey! After all, they're my baby-trains ...thanks for starting this thread! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Posted February 24, 2010 Author Share Posted February 24, 2010 My pleasure - turned into quite a good thread Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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