Six-wheel parcels vans

[AberdeenBill]

Hi all,

 

I've read in a few places that six-wheel vans (yes, like STOVE Rs) were banned from passenger carrying trains from about 1959. Was this as a result of a particular accident/incident of poor riding?

 

Thanks,

Bill

[The Stationmaster]

There might possibly have been some sort of temporary ban but the major change came at sometime in the 1960s (sorry I don't have the exact date to hand) when 6 wheeled coaching stock vehicles (except milk tanks) were limited to a maximum speed of 75mph and they were barred from being attached to any passenger train where they were not shown as part of the booked formation and they were prohibited from being marshalled between bogie vehicles. I'm reasonably sure it was a result of a derailment or other incident.

[AMJ]

It was probably about the same time that the speed limit was allocated to coaching stock coupled by screw couplings rather than buckeyes.

 

Essentially if a train is scheduled to exceed say 75mph and there are limits on the speed from the stock then that's when it's likely to rather than be banned but allocated to slower services.

 

Not got it to hand but I'm sure that there are diagrams in the CWD book for East Coast in (winter) 1960 that still includes some BZ vans.

[Pennine MC]

There is a pic (IIRC in one of the RCTS coaching stock books) of a Thompson BZ immediately behind a loco (27, obviously) at Oban in the mid 70s. Oban didnt receive all-parcels trains (and again IIRC there's a Mk1 next in line), so as the Oban line would be likely to still be subject to the one-time blanket 75mph Scottish speed limit, that would support the idea of restriction on use, rather than a total ban.

[roythebus]

ISTR seeing 6 wheel parcels vans in my days at Rugby, 1973-74.

[BernardTPM]

ISTR seeing 6 wheel parcels vans in my days at Rugby, 1973-74.

 

They lasted until the late '70s ('77/'78), but the question was why they were banned from passenger carrying trains; their continued use in parcels trains isn't really relevant - unless you saw them in use in passenger trains at that time, of course.

[Baby Deltic]

I would guess that the higher running speeds of express workings in general following modernisation of the network would probably have made any ban on these vehicles necessary. Most diesel loco's could do 80 - 90mph. Maybe there were enough MK1 BG and bogie GUV vehicles at the to cover passenger train needs by that time.

[The Stationmaster]

They lasted until the late '70s ('77/'78), but the question was why they were banned from passenger carrying trains; their continued use in parcels trains isn't really relevant - unless you saw them in use in passenger trains at that time, of course.

 

 

 

Seems that I've been at the invisible ink again - they were NOT banned from passenger trains. To repeat from post No. 2 above -

 

'...were limited to a maximum speed of 75mph and they were barred from being attached to any passenger train where they were not shown as part of the booked formation and they were prohibited from being marshalled between bogie vehicles.'

Translation - If they were shown as part of the booked formation they could be attached to a passenger train not booked to exceed 75mph. Or to put it another way - if they were booked to be attached to a passenger train that train would not be permitted to exceed 75mph and would be timed accordingly (hence the need to include them in the booked formation). As I said previously I believe it was the consequences of a derailment but there was a lot of work going on at that time into vehicle riding and it might have been something which came out of that work?

[Phil Bullock]

Old thread but continuation of discussions - one for the 1970's traffic dept!

 

In 71/72 according to my WR (Bham - Bristol) WTT parcels trains ran as either class 3 or class 4

 

I would like to think that class 3s consisted of bogie vehicles using buckeyes and class 4s could contain 4/6 wheel vehicles with screw couplings only. Is it that straightforwards please?

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[The Stationmaster]

Old thread but continuation of discussions - one for the 1970's traffic dept!

 

In 71/72 according to my WR (Bham - Bristol) WTT parcels trains ran as either class 3 or class 4

I would like to think that class 3s consisted of bogie vehicles using buckeyes and class 4s could contain 4/6 wheel vehicles with screw couplings only. Is it that straightforwards please?

Cheers

Phil

More or less WEF 05 May 1969

Class 3 became 'Express parcels train composed of vehicles permitted to run at 90 mph or over', and,

Class 4 became 'Freightliner train. Parcels train, Company or express freight train composed of vehicles permitted to run at 75 mph or over.'

(date cross-checked from two official sources)

 

AFAIK the type of couplings would not have mattered as I'm sure there were plenty of 90mph GUVs around in 1969 with screw couplings but someone else might know different on that one?

[Phil Bullock]

Cheers Mike

 

In that case we'll run the class 3s with Hornby close couplings and the class 4s with tension locks.

 

But just to complicate further there was also 1B01 Padd - Worcester Vans (newspapers) and 5B73 Malago Vale/BTM - Worcester vans

 

So I make that 4 classes that parcels could run under!

 

kind regards

 

phil

[Fat Controller]

Cheers Mike

 

In that case we'll run the class 3s with Hornby close couplings and the class 4s with tension locks.

 

But just to complicate further there was also 1B01 Padd - Worcester Vans (newspapers) and 5B73 Malago Vale/BTM - Worcester vans

 

So I make that 4 classes that parcels could run under!

 

kind regards

 

phil

Wasn't Class 5 Empty Coaching Stock?

[The Stationmaster]

 

But just to complicate further there was also 1B01 Pdd - Worcester Vans (newspapers) and 5B73 Malago Vale/BTM - Worcester vans

So I make that 4 classes that parcels could run under!

kind regards

phil

The 01.10 Padd - Worcester was a Newspaper Train hence it ran as Class 1 (although at some times over the years it did convey parcels traffic) - an interesting train because in the 1970 timetable it was formed of 2 vehicles (GUVs) on Mondays only but the rest of the week (Tues-Sat) it was formed with 7 vehicles, which was basically because it was a back working of the 20.30 Worcester Parcels (which once upon a time had been the 19.35 Kidderminster - Paddington Parcels which in its day tended to have a very motley formation).

 

The Malago Vale - Worcester train you refer to was obviously an Empty Coaching Stock (ECS) train hence it was Class 5 - if it had been a Parcels Train it would have run as Class 3 or Class 4.

[Fat Controller]

The importance of Worcester for parcels traffic was the presence of one of the major 'catalogue' firms there, IIRC; was it K's or GUS?

[Phil Bullock]

Many thanks Mike

 

You very much have this off pat - is there somewhere these train formations can be ascertained, very keen to get them right for Abbotswood. So if 1B01 was 2 GUVs MO what would the 7 vehicles have been the rest of the week? Was planning on a mix of GUVS and Hawkesworth/MK1 BGs - would that be about right?

 

Thanks again

 

Phil

[The Stationmaster]

Many thanks Mike

You very much have this off pat - is there somewhere these train formations can be ascertained, very keen to get them right for Abbotswood. So if 1B01 was 2 GUVs MO what would the 7 vehicles have been the rest of the week? Was planning on a mix of GUVS and Hawkesworth/MK1 BGs - would that be about right?

Thanks again

Phil

Alas a lot of my info is limited - you just happened to be near something I have for the 01.10 Padd (formed 3xGUV BG 3xGUV Mondays Excepted). I'm not sure but Robert Carroll might have something for this period although I don't know if he'll have the van trains?

 

And yes Brian - Worcester was, I think, Kay's traffic. Kidderminster was also an originating point for mail order traffic as well although I don't know if that continued beyond the late 1960s; the 'Kidderminster Parcels' must have been one of the worst loading trains on BR at times - one night it arrived at Paddington with a Vanfit in the formation (not too unusual) but it contained just a single role of lino.

[Phil Bullock]

Thanks all - thats excellent gen.

 

I suspect a fair bit of china went out as parcels traffic from Worcs too

 

Mind you 3V01 on a Sat AM Curzon St - Worcester must also have been in the running for worst loading - usually a single 12t van, usually a boilered 25 but on one memorable occasion D373!

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[roythebus]

GUVs were run at 90 on the KX car sleeper trains in the 1970's. They had screw couplings.

[Phil Bullock]

Cheers Roy