Central Trains to the North-West

Please could someone tell me whether Central Trains had any routes through the Hope Valley other than Norwich-Liverpool? I'm trawling through photos of their units and I want to check that any train photographed on the Hope Valley line would actually have been bound for Liverpool (always assuming that it wasn't terminated at Manchester or Warrington; always a Central speciality).

Thanks

Jim

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Trains

From memory Central only worked into Liverpool with its official termini in the North West. As you say tho Jim they were known for turning some services back short.

Ian

Please could someone tell me whether Central Trains had any routes through the Hope Valley other than Norwich-Liverpool? I'm trawling through photos of their units and I want to check that any train photographed on the Hope Valley line would actually have been bound for Liverpool (always assuming that it wasn't terminated at Manchester or Warrington; always a Central speciality).

 

Thanks

 

Jim

Thanks Ian. I was fairly sure that was the case, but I wasn't sure if they had some services that terminated at Manchester (officially, as opposed to the ones that terminated at Manchester "just because")

Jim

From memory just about anything could turn up on these services - including occasional 153s and Midland Mainline 170s before they were permanently transferred to Central Trains

I think, as now, the last train of the day was a scheduled turnback at Manchester and a few early/late trains served the Hope Valley locals but all this was fundamentally the Liverpool route. 

Jim, as Edwin says the first few started from Nottingham, which is where CT crews and some DMUs were based. From 2001 onwards they were all diagramed for 170s but things often changed on the day hence the 158s and even 156/153 combos.

HTH

Tom

The 158s were Northern Spirit gold and purple (their Transpennine scheme) with the lower body re-vinyled for Transpennine Express and then re-branded for Central.   With all those liveries it's a wonder they still stayed in gauge.  And yest some layers were peeling off. 

The white Turbostar was a spot hire unit, 397 or 398 I think, which Central took for a while and is now with Cross Country. 

Central operated EMUs from Birmingham to Liverpool before these went to London Midland, and the Crewe-Nottingham (as was) was extended to Manchester Airport for a while, but no other Central service used the Hope Valley. 

Many thanks to everyone. My recollection was that the service around 2006 was mainly 158s, with a few 170s. Looking at photos, though, it seems that the reverse was the case. I've found evidence of 2, 3, 4 and 5-car 170s; mixed 158/170 sets; and a whole bunch of liveries (again, my recollection was that just about everything at that time was two-tone green, but evidently not). I haven't found any photos of 153/156 combos in Liverpool in 2006 yet, although there was one noted on a Liverpool railfan group in 2009.

The Central 158 fleet livery situation seems to have descended into chaos in 2007 when the displaced TransPennine units arrived. The transitional First TransPennine scheme is one of the worst of all privatisation liveries (IMHO), but the Central rebrands are even worse - they call to mind the exchange between Kurtz and Willard from Apocalypse Now: 

"Are my methods unsound?"

"I don't see any method at all, sir"

Just randomly-applied patches of vinyl all over the shop.

For my purposes, this is actually quite good news, since the Farish 170 is a much better model than their 158. One day, someone must surely bring out a 158 to modern standards: I'm trying to hold off buying any until after that day comes.

Jim

The 158s were Northern Spirit gold and purple (their Transpennine scheme) with the lower body re-vinyled for Transpennine Express and then re-branded for Central.   With all those liveries it's a wonder they still stayed in gauge.  And yest some layers were peeling off. 

 

The white Turbostar was a spot hire unit, 397 or 398 I think, which Central took for a while and is now with Cross Country. 

 

Central operated EMUs from Birmingham to Liverpool before these went to London Midland, and the Crewe-Nottingham (as was) was extended to Manchester Airport for a while, but no other Central service used the Hope Valley. 

The Birmingham service went over to EMUs (unbranded grey / blue 350s, shared with Silverlink) from January 2006, I think (might have been mid-December, but I think that was just the press run). What was it before that? 3-car 170s?

Jim

For my purposes, this is actually quite good news, since the Farish 170 is a much better model than their 158. One day, someone must surely bring out a 158 to modern standards: I'm trying to hold off buying any until after that day comes.

 

Jim

Me too - the 158 looks really crude compared with more recent offerings!

Good luck with the model. I really fancied a Central Trains layout a few years ago, so will watch developments with interest.

Me too - the 158 looks really crude compared with more recent offerings!

 

Good luck with the model. I really fancied a Central Trains layout a few years ago, so will watch developments with interest.

I used to subscribe to the surprisingly common view that it "isn't too bad", but it's really un-grown on me over the last few years. The more I look at it now, the more I see wrong, I'm afraid. I think the problem is that the less detail there is, the more it shows when it isn't there. The absence of the jacking points, the water filler and the assorted bits and bobs around the cab jars more and more every time I see one; and as for the ends...

There must be a fair bit of love for Central though, because whenever two-tone green models show up on eBay, they seem to fetch outlandish amounts.

Also in the Central Trains days we had 323's to Liverpool Lime st from Birmingham to give them some higher speed running between Stafford and Crewe but usually we has 2 and 3 car 170's and towards the end of the Central Trains franchise we had the then unbranded 350/1's.

But I do remember travelling over the Hope valley on several Norwich-Liverpool services thats all I can remember as the furthest north I sign now is Wolverhampton   

323s? Interesting. Never seen one of those at Lime Street. Was it a regular diagrammed thing? I've scarcely ever ridden in one (Oxford Road to Piccadilly is about the only time I've been on one) but I wouldn't have thought they were very well-suited to that sort of journey.

Jim

<EDIT> Just had a look on the Liverpool-Rails Yahoo group: apparently a pair of 323s subbed for a 350 on a single working in April 2012. I didn't notice that at the time</EDIT>

Jim

I'm not sure if 323's were diagrammed for a regular run to liverpool, but I certainly remember them being used quite often. I've also ridden on a 312 back from liverpool one saturday afternoon, cant remember the exact year but it was either in the summer of 1998 or 1999, and very enjoyable it was too!

Usual staple was the 170s, and for a while it used to run as a stanstead airport - liverpool service, with only a 10 minute turn around at liverpool which resulted in somewhat poor time keeping. The 170s were a pain on the liverpools for us on xc, we had a lot of preston work in our link at the time, departing new st about 10 mins after the liverpool, we could see the 170s tail lamps by stafford and had the joy of being stuck behind it all the way to weaver jct, often making us late. Gladly this changed when the 350s were introduced, we could'nt see their tail lamps for dust!

Slightly O/T

 

I have a photo of a  single 153 in Lime Street with Stansted Airport on the destination blind - can't remember the date though.

I think that would qualify as cruel and unusual punishment. 

Many thanks to everyone. My recollection was that the service around 2006 was mainly 158s, with a few 170s. Looking at photos, though, it seems that the reverse was the case. I've found evidence of 2, 3, 4 and 5-car 170s; mixed 158/170 sets; and a whole bunch of liveries (again, my recollection was that just about everything at that time was two-tone green, but evidently not). I haven't found any photos of 153/156 combos in Liverpool in 2006 yet, although there was one noted on a Liverpool railfan group in 2009.

 

The Central 158 fleet livery situation seems to have descended into chaos in 2007 when the displaced TransPennine units arrived. The transitional First TransPennine scheme is one of the worst of all privatisation liveries (IMHO), but the Central rebrands are even worse - they call to mind the exchange between Kurtz and Willard from Apocalypse Now: 

 

"Are my methods unsound?"

"I don't see any method at all, sir"

 

Just randomly-applied patches of vinyl all over the shop.

 

 

Jim

I started as a (very ugly!) trolley dolly working the Norwich-Liverpool route in July 2003, later becoming an ATE, now a guard for EMT.

As I recall Central had just about finished the 're-furb' of the 158 fleet, from Regional livery. It consisted of a paint job on the outside, new seat covers and a strip of carpet down the aisles. The original carpet in the seats was left, it was already full of crud, and just got worse.

The 170s were still new then, services were booked traction according to loadings, the busiest ones using 3 car 170s, others 158s or 2 car 170s. Swaps occurred frequently, often for 156s, dependent on what Tyseley could send out.

Not long after I started Central introduced their 'Citylink' branding, only on the timetables though. One benefit for me was that if  a 156 was provided it was deemed as not up to the required standard, so as 'compensation' all passengers were offered a free drink from the trolley. As I was self employed, on commission only, this was a huge bonus, you could give away £300+ worth of drinks on a busy train, at 35% commission plus food made it a good day!

The ex MML 170s came along in 2004, I think, being branded in white on their original livery with the 'Big C' at the ends and the website address on the bodysides. As I recall the Central franchise was extended twice form it's original end date so full re-livery wouldn't have been applied anyway.

The ex TPE 158s came very late in the franchise, within the last year or so, again they were branded with the 'big C' and bodyside lettering. They were mostly three car sets with some  2 cars, with 2 car Central sets sent to what would become ( was already?)the Northern franchise. Ironically the centre cars were removed and sent to Northern shortly after the EMT franchise took over. All this shuffling was decreed by the DFT at the time, you could see Central livery 158s anywhere from at least Newcastle in the north to Penzance, some having been sent to Wessex trains!

The last Central 156 was only painted from 'Reggie Rail' into green about 2003, the final green one has, I believe, now been repainted by Greater Anglia within the last few weeks. 

When EMT started we had a right hotchpotch of liveries, I arrived at Nottingham for work early one Sunday, there were units stabled in the middle roads as normal. Looking along them I counted something like 10 different livery variations.

Everything is now in EMT livery having undergone a full re-furb involving the bodyshells being completely stripped out, with a good few modifications to standardise the fleets.

As for 323s at Lime Street, I saw them on several occasions when I was there, presumably as a replacement for a failed 170 or 158, or a right time start from Birmingham for a late running Stansted-Liverpool, which quite often happened. This was after Central was given 'lead operator' status on the route, following Virgin Cross Country's problems with 'Operation Princess' I believe. 

Slightly O/T

 

I have a photo of a  single 153 in Lime Street with Stansted Airport on the destination blind - can't remember the date though.

I think that would qualify as cruel and unusual punishment. 

having travelled from Norwich to Grantham on a two car EMT 158 on a summer weekend that was cruel (I remember loco haulage between Norwich and Birmingham)

To add a bit more variety, Central hired in a 170 from Anglia for a few weeks in either 2003 or 2004.

Cue confusion at Norwich, two Anglia units on adjacent platforms, one going to London LIVERPOOL Street, the other going to LIVERPOOL Lime Street!

Some people still get it wrong, a 158 going to Lime Street, is mistaken for a class 90 and up to 11 mk3 coaches going to Liverpool St  That's why I always announce fairly loudly before departure that the train DOES NOT GO TO LONDON   

Many thanks, guys. Some interesting food for thought there.

Slightly O/T

 

I have a photo of a  single 153 in Lime Street with Stansted Airport on the destination blind - can't remember the date though.

Not OT at all, although that seems like one that you'd want to have been terminated short of its destination - or maybe even before leaving its point of origin! I travelled between Sheffield and Lincoln on a 153 the other week and even that was a bit wearing. It's not the ride quality so much as the seating. You can't relax on those low-backed seats; you have to sit bolt upright like a watchful meerkat. I don't think that this puts a Central 153 onto my "want list" just yet, but if someone gave me one I might hold onto it.

 

When EMT started we had a right hotchpotch of liveries, I arrived at Nottingham for work early one Sunday, there were units stabled in the middle roads as normal. Looking along them I counted something like 10 different livery variations.

Everything is now in EMT livery having undergone a full re-furb involving the bodyshells being completely stripped out, with a good few modifications to standardise the fleets.

 

 

The refurbished EMT 158s were lovely. Obviously they're starting to show signs of wear now, but when they were freshly-done, they were like new trains.

I remember turning up at Lime Street for the first EMT train of the day a few years back and the ECS arrived as a six-car train (I think the ECS for the first two or three departures of the day travelled from Nottingham as a single train); three two-car units each in a different livery, all rebranded as EMT but all with the previous branding visible through the new. That was one each Alphaline, SWT and - I think - Central.

Jim

 

The refurbished EMT 158s were lovely. Obviously they're starting to show signs of wear now, but when they were freshly-done, they were like new trains.

 

I remember turning up at Lime Street for the first EMT train of the day a few years back and the ECS arrived as a six-car train (I think the ECS for the first two or three departures of the day travelled from Nottingham as a single train); three two-car units each in a different livery, all rebranded as EMT but all with the previous branding visible through the new. That was one each Alphaline, SWT and - I think - Central.

 

Jim

A good many passengers thought they were new, I reckon the bright colours and lighting helps. I still get asked on occasion if the standard saloon is first class.

The ECS is now eight cars, forms the first two departures, 06.47 and 07.42.

Ahh yes, the SWT ones we had on hire. The good thing about those is they retain the original lower backed seats, and consequently a slightly wider aisle. The first class section is lovely, not many of our passengers would use them, believing they would get upgraded.

I think that would qualify as cruel and unusual punishment. 

Central's other service to the North West, the Skegness to Crewe (and Manchester Airport for a while) was often a single class 153. That was a 5+ journey - I never did the full thing, but Crewe to Grantham was pretty horrible in a 153.

I never understood the logic of these trains - virtually empty from Crewe to Derby, standing room only Derby -Nottingham - Grantham, then empty again east of Grantham. Central also seemed to have a rostering system where all of their DMUs were interchangeable, as you could get a 3 car class 170 or a single 153 on the same service on consecutive days. After a few months of using their trains to commute I came to the conclusion that the people running Central trains didn't know what they were doing and were possibly morons. Luckily the Government came to to the same conclusion a few years later.......

Didn't CT have a spell when they found it more profitable to hire trains out to other operators, despite being short of trains themselves? Then there was the 156 debacle, where they tried to swap trains with their Scottish franchise to get hold of more 158s. 

The 153s had a perpetual smell of dampness and decay inside. If I remember correctly, they were never properly refurbished by CT - just given a new exterior paint job, which they only just finished towards the end of the franchise.

Didn't CT have a spell when they found it more profitable to hire trains out to other operators, despite being short of trains themselves? Then there was the 156 debacle, where they tried to swap trains with their Scottish franchise to get hold of more 158s. 

 

The 153s had a perpetual smell of dampness and decay inside. If I remember correctly, they were never properly refurbished by CT - just given a new exterior paint job, which they only just finished towards the end of the franchise.

CT did indeed hire units out. If you're hiring something you pay for it used or not, so hiring out would provide income if the unit wasn't needed. 

There were some good people in CT, most ex BR, but whether they were allowed to do what they would have preferred by National Express.........

When the 158s were refurbished by EMT they were done pretty much according to condition, the worst first. The ex CT ones were done first, followed by the TPE ones, then the Alphalines because they were allocated into the franchise a bit later when the 3 car TPE ones had the centre car removed. In terms of condition the TPE were, in my opinion, by far the best.

The 153s were treated according to condition to some extent, although most of the CT ones were towards the end of the programme. Some of the worst being ex Wessex, another NX franchise.

The usual thing probably happened with the units transferred to Central - the originating TOC saw a way of getting rid of all their "lemons".  Certainly things are much more reliable as well as comfortable now the fleet has been refurbished, though I miss the ex-TPE first class and its power sockets. They were also sensible enough not to paint anything into their livery until it had been refurbished internally. 

My view on CT was that they did a lot of the big things right, like ordering new 170s when their license didn't require it and providing new through journeys.  But they were let down by messing up on the detail, like the condition of the interiors and the fact their allocation of units to diagrams sometimes seemed to resemble drawing the numbers out of a hat.  I used to be a regular on the 0810 from Nottingham which was the last arrival into Birmingham before 1000 and on the frequent occasions it was 150 vice 156 you could see the barristers balancing their case files on their knees and imagine them vowing never to use the train again.