Turin 60 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 I too have one of these beasties to build, I know a gentleman in the Colonel Stephens Society who helped with the research for this kit and he too was disapointed not to have the option of the four wheel tender. I'm still half wondering about the tender as mine is not intending to be a model of Carlisle, good luck guys. John Bruce. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted May 21, 2016 Author Share Posted May 21, 2016 I'll be issuing my own kit in due course, be prepared for a wait though as I plan this to be a kit of rather epic magnitude covering Mid Wales and Bishops Castle locos. The Mid Wales tender drawing, I have concluded, is correct in it's adoption of 9'9" wheelbase - there's a good side on shot in John Scott Morgan's Bishops castle book of Carlisle's 4 wheeler and scaling it fits nicely with 9'9" and not 9'6". Perhaps the RCTS dimensions were mistakenly taken from the Sharp Stewart tenders, which are 9'6". 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
relaxinghobby Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 Here's a start on the loco, this little lot has taken several evenings and it's at the critical point. Can I get the two sides to line up ? Can I get it to run smoothly? I'm following the instructions step by step. I'm just preparing the chassis axle jig and the coupling rods. This photo shows how small the Bishops Castle Railway Kitson loco was, especially considering it was a standard mainline goods engine in it's day (1868 ) compared to a later small shunting and trip goods loco. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
relaxinghobby Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Another step completed and the first time I have used my EB models jig to assemble a chassis. So far I've followed the loco kit instructions and fitted the bearings into the sides them clipped the spacers into the slots and soldered them to one side only. Now I've offered up the second side making sure first that the slots are free of solder. I've done this on the jig the second side clicked into place with a little bit of wiggling. The photo shows it before final soldering. It's all held by friction here. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted May 28, 2016 Author Share Posted May 28, 2016 I'm just trying to work out what the hell to do with the tender chassis. After much faffing I've assembled the actual chassis unit (one of those stupid 3 hands required jobs to solder up). I've already mentioned the axle slots being 3mm, well not only are they 3mm but they don't align with the axleboxes in the outer frames! They have been designed having failed to allow for the thickness of the buffer beams! If that wasn't enough, the wheel flanges rub on the floor (though I'll admit I'm not entirely sure they would if they had 3mm axles). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted May 28, 2016 Author Share Posted May 28, 2016 Correction, the screw holes are the problem with the misalignment. I eventually made bearings on the lathe, 3mm OD and 2mm ID for the axles. I originally made a jig to fit pinpoints in the outer frames but that was a faff to get all lined up, and probably would interfere with the cosmetic axleboxes (when I get that far!). The new bearings were soldered into place using some 2mm fibreglass rod to keep them straight. Since I had the lathe out I also shortened and took the head almost right off an 8BA bolt for the drawbar/front mounting screw and soldered it to the tender floor. I also ended up soldering a shim of scrap etch over the top of the frames to stop the flanges hitting the floor, which has done the trick. Going to add the coal rail in a moment then I can get it all scrubbed up and put away till next time I fancy some self torture, when no doubt I'll find that the wheels don't all sit level! 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
relaxinghobby Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 (edited) Hi Quarryscapes So we have to shorten the tender chassis, just like on the loco. On the loco chassis you are told by the instructions to shorten the frames, removing 1mm from one end and 0.5 mm from the other. I've now got both sides soldered together, Wheels in and am starting on the coupling rods. The good news is that it rolls, all though a bit stiffly. I've not fitted the two central spacers, I've yet to work out what motor/gearbox arrangement to use. Edited May 28, 2016 by relaxinghobby 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike morley Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 As it's such a tiny little loco, might the best route be a motor in the tender with a shaft through to a gearbox on the loco, 2mm style? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted May 28, 2016 Author Share Posted May 28, 2016 Hi Quarryscapes So we have to shorten the tender chassis, j No, you need to slot the holes in the spacers and slide them into position. Get some 2mm bore 3mm diameter bearings from Markits and use a long 2mm rod to align them properly to the outer frames. As it's such a tiny little loco, might the best route be a motor in the tender with a shaft through to a gearbox on the loco, 2mm style? Mine's getting a whacking great Maxon in the boiler and a custom gearbox. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
relaxinghobby Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 Bit of an S.O.S. here. I've got as far as the footplate valance which is those thin strips on the etch. How can I get them off and cleaned up and attached in the right place on the underside of the footplate without bending or wrinkling them ? The instructions say hold the strips as a unit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted May 29, 2016 Author Share Posted May 29, 2016 Cut them off the fret with scissors, clean up tabs with them firmly held in some pliers right next to the tab so if the file snags it wont bend the strip. As for attaching them...good luck! I might be tempted to get some suitably sized angle section from Eileens and use that instead as it's far easier to work with. Also, forget the none rivet covered buffer beam - just use the overlay on it's own. The prototype sure as hell wasn't built from 2.5" thick sheet steel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted May 30, 2016 Author Share Posted May 30, 2016 A little bit of improvement work on the tender: Etched coal rails replaced with proper round rails, 0.7mm NS wire. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albyn Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Carlisle got the 6 wheel tender when it was rebuilt at Wolverhampton in 1924. It had a new but identical boiler fitted from Kitsons. It was the last loco rebuilt at Wolverhampton and they were determined to make a good job of it. The 4 wheel tender was so poor that they found a better one on the scrap line and substituted it for the four wheel one. It was slightly wider and a bit lower than the original. They said that Swindon would never realise the tenders were swapped as long as the number of tenders to be broken up remained the same. The story is told in one of Holcroft's books. The kit has its limitations but is probably good enough. The tender top had the water filler in a horseshoe shaped casing, as per LNWR, butting up to the spacer to keep the coal at the back. It had a dustbin lid type top to the circular water filler. In its last few months Carlisle was repainted in black from GWR green I was told by the late Ken Lucas who often rode on the footplate as a boy. The copper capped chimney and brass safety valve cover are GWR types. Better ones in brass and copper are available from David Geen who supplies them with his 517 kits I think. I too have a part built one. It took rather a lot of fiddling to do and the picture on the front of the box is actually of my part built model! I too asked Trevor for a four wheel tender and suggested he put the tender on a separate etch as it would have sold separately to GWR modellers. If you have any missing etches contact him - I've always found him very helpful. My chassis was nickel silver, as were the rods. regards, Albyn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albyn Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 The SLS have Kitson's original book of locos built with the maker's photo and a side view of the loco only as built. This was used for the kit but with the cab added and the width guesstimated - the same as LNWR I think. The tender came from the GWR weight diagrams and some plans for similar tenders supplied to other customers than the GWR in the Manchester Museum of Science and Industry. The Kitson drawings don't survive - I think Hunslet bought the goodwill and burnt any drawings they thought would never be used again. I have a copy somewhere and loads of photos of Carlisle taken on the BCR priot to its scrapping in 1936 I think. Happy to help with info if anybody needs some, regards, Albyn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albyn Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 Photos that might be of use for the earlier loco, regards, Albyn 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
auld_boot Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 Bit of an S.O.S. here. I've got as far as the footplate valance which is those thin strips on the etch. How can I get them off and cleaned up and attached in the right place on the underside of the footplate without bending or wrinkling them ? The instructions say hold the strips as a unit. I've used 4 or 5 wooden clothes pegs in the past, cut a shallow slot in the face of one side to hold the valence square (there might be some wastage of pegs trying to cut straight and square, there was for me anyway!). Then with all the pegs holding it in place you can adjust and tack solder it in place in-between the pegs. Suitable size angle is a much easier option if you don't mind adding to the cost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albyn Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 a few more photos, Albyn 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian@stenochs Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 What an attractive prototype for a model! Lots of character, nice spindly wheels and polished brass work. I would love to have an excuse, and the time, to build one of these. Can I ask what colours the loco would be painted in the photographs above please? Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albyn Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 The original Kitson diagram plus the redrawn copy by Tudor Watkins with dimensions Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albyn Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 RCTS GW locos section on Mid Wales 0-6-0s confirms 9ft 6in tender wheelbase and 3ft 8in wheels Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albyn Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 Some more photos of Carlisle with 4 wheel tender 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted November 1, 2016 Author Share Posted November 1, 2016 (edited) Albyn, many thanks for posting these pics and drawings. I restarted my own project last week having found an issue with the CAD software - each time the drawing was opened, the scale drawing would come out scaled slightly differently each time, so parts drawn on different days were not compatible! I've now moved the original drawing straight into the 3D modelling software I use to create a 'master' 3d model which I can then use to draw any etched parts in the other software (!). One of the pictures in Post #46 is the one I used for scaling the tender wheelbase (post#27). Having now got the drawing nice and stable, I can confirm it IS 9'6" in 'my' drawing too. Having compared my drawing to yours Albyn, the dimensions match up near perfectly (within half a full size inch) apart from the loco wheelbase which I've already addressed. It's going to take a good long while, but one day we will have a decent kit befitting this fine old loco. In fact I may have a go at getting the master 3d model roughed out tomorrow. Here is the god forsaken mess of guidelines that I'm working with! Edited November 1, 2016 by Quarryscapes 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albyn Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 I attach a scan at my attempt at a front view of Carlisle which I guesstimated as 7ft 6in across the footplate after looking at engines of a similar date. This looks about the correct size from looking at front view photos with a 4 foot 6 in diameter boiler. I also attach what i think the boiler back plate looked like from studying several photos showing part of the boiler. The indistinct writing says that the frames were edged with a single line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albyn Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 The width across the buffer centres on the Beyer tender seems to be 5ft 8in. Both the GWR and Beyer used 5ft 8in or 5ft 10 in. but looking at photos suggested 5ft 8in was correct. I did study a few Beyer and GWR tender drawings of the period. Carlisle was slightly wider so was probably 5ft 10in across buffer centres. Also the Beyer tender footplate was a slightly different height to that on Carlisle - see photos. This seems to agree with my guess at the width of Carlisle too. I did enquire about surviving Kitson drawings but Hunslets who took over the goodwill etc of Kitsons got rid of all drawings that they didn't think would ever be of use to them, so nothing survives except for the side view in the KItson book of completed locomotives now with the Stephenson Locomotive Society. I await any views on the subject! Albyn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albyn Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 Some views of the rear of the tender and a side view by jarvis of the other side of the loco 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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