rob D2 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 What you have done is a very good thing. It's a dilemma , as most social problems are. For the number of hopeless druggies I've walked past in stairwells, there are probably just as many very deserving cases. There's no black and white here only grey. I drove past a guy in the states recently, standing ramrod straight in a military " attention " position. He had a nicely drawn bit of card with ex USMC on it. TBH I believed him and chucked him some dollars....hope I was right Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted October 22, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 22, 2016 What you have done is a very good thing. It's a dilemma , as most social problems are. For the number of hopeless druggies I've walked past in stairwells, there are probably just as many very deserving cases. There's no black and white here only grey. I drove past a guy in the states recently, standing ramrod straight in a military " attention " position. He had a nicely drawn bit of card with ex USMC on it. TBH I believed him and chucked him some dollars....hope I was right Good on ya. What pi##es me off is that anyone should need to do what that bloke was doing....however I know nothing of social issues in the US of A. Also, how TF do people become 'hopeless druggies'? Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockershovel Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Re #25, I'm not a conventionally religious man (although like many seamen I tend to a vaguely "Old Testament" agnosticism). However an old friend joined the Salvation Army in response to various issues in her life, and it seemed to help her. I'm a great supporter of the Sally Ann, in the sense that I'll always spring a couple of quid when they rattle the tin. I've seen them out in all weathers, operating soup-and-tea vans for rough sleepers in freezing winter nights, doing Sunday dinner groups for people on their own and the rest of it. I don't particularly share their theology and I don't care for their happy-clappy services, it ain't dignified; but if it motivates them to act in their beliefs, you can't say anything against that. So I can't really see what a Church could do, but try and help in that situation. The worst you can do is be wrong for the best of reasons, and I can't see any harm that could come from it if you were. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted October 22, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 22, 2016 I too have always rated the 'Army' as putting their people where it matters. However, there are plenty of others without a 'faith' that do wonderful stuff and I am fully aware of that. I'm calmer now but I still feel strongly that something has to happen in this country to sort out the helpless even if they appear to be hopeless. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted October 22, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 22, 2016 I think an effective solution needs to start before people are homeless, a medical analogy would be that it is better on every level to address the lifestyle choices associated with cancer than to just throw more money at cancer treatment. For example, it is said that there is a particular prevalence of former military personnel on the streets, why is that? What can the MoD do to evaluate why there is a problem with former forces personnel ending up on the streets and to try and do something about it? Why do some people slip through the social security net (I have a few ideas on that one but they'd take the thread way too political)? I think a lot of it goes back to childhood and education, I was at school with kids who were a train wreck happening before everybody's eyes. These are just a few thoughts, but there are reasons why each one of those rough sleepers is sleeping rough. In some cases I do think we should be honest and say it is the result of their own poor decisions in life but even in those cases I also think that we are not much of a society if we withhold humane treatment on the basis of a persons earlier mistakes in life. All very sad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
inglenookfan Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Anyone who turns thier nose up at what they deem to be a hopeless druggie , or believe thier are more fakers than not AND are appalled by the dirty people blocking thier rose tinted view of this society, should read earlier posts and have a good think before posting again. It is also not a thread for jokes. We aren't born with booze in one hand and a joint in the other. It gets out of control due to reasons and that could be from being born on the wrong side of the tracks, or going to a lovely local school in your freshly pressed uniform, with a belly full of porridge for another session with the headmaster and his calluding school nurse. You may have been born with a silver spoon in your mouth but other kids end up with the crack spoon. Inglenookfan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted October 22, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 22, 2016 I think an effective solution needs to start before people are homeless, a medical analogy would be that it is better on every level to address the lifestyle choices associated with cancer than to just throw more money at cancer treatment. For example, it is said that there is a particular prevalence of former military personnel on the streets, why is that? What can the MoD do to evaluate why there is a problem with former forces personnel ending up on the streets and to try and do something about it? Why do some people slip through the social security net (I have a few ideas on that one but they'd take the thread way too political)? I think a lot of it goes back to childhood and education, I was at school with kids who were a train wreck happening before everybody's eyes. These are just a few thoughts, but there are reasons why each one of those rough sleepers is sleeping rough. In some cases I do think we should be honest and say it is the result of their own poor decisions in life but even in those cases I also think that we are not much of a society if we withhold humane treatment on the basis of a persons earlier mistakes in life. All very sad. In a nutshell. In the past I have ended friendships because of others' attitudes towards 'people with problems'. This is the 'it's their own fault' attitude. I'm sorry, I can not accept that even when they (the persons with problems) have chosen to do what they have done for whatever reason. There have probably been times in life when we contributors to this post may well have been just a whisker away from 'situations'. I have. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 In a nutshell. In the past I have ended friendships because of others' attitudes towards 'people with problems'. This is the 'it's their own fault' attitude. I'm sorry, I can not accept that even when they (the persons with problems) have chosen to do what they have done for whatever reason. There have probably been times in life when we contributors to this post may well have been just a whisker away from 'situations'. I have. Phil Some folks aren't listening! It isn't just 'People with problems' or those 'Making poor life choices'. In a country where there are around 800,000 job vacancies and 1.5 million on Jobseekers' Allowance, sanctioning someone for not trying hard enough to obtain work seems utterly pointless. If you are sanctioned, you have no money for anything, and if you have very little saved up, you can very soon be out on the street. wasn't there a survey the other week that said that there were 4 million working people with less than £100 in the bank? Should one of these lose their job, quite possibly through no fault of their own, they are soon going to be in trouble. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
inglenookfan Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Alot of people could do with experiencing a situation and the effects of it. Just one week of abuse and one week 30-40 years later as a course. I will pay for you to attend. Inglenookfan Edit..... i dont mean this as a wierd punishment thing. Pure education to guide the humane side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
inglenookfan Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Some folks aren't listening! It isn't just 'People with problems' or those 'Making poor life choices'. In a country where there are around 800,000 job vacancies and 1.5 million on Jobseekers' Allowance, sanctioning someone for not trying hard enough to obtain work seems utterly pointless. If you are sanctioned, you have no money for anything, and if you have very little saved up, you can very soon be out on the street. wasn't there a survey the other week that said that there were 4 million working people with less than £100 in the bank? Should one of these lose their job, quite possibly through no fault of their own, they are soon going to be in trouble. What is bizarre is if your arm and leg get blown off and you get really mentally unwell because of it not a great deal will change for you BUT you will get benefits if you are helped by someone and it is a secure income. Choice here then should be trying to get your own place to live so you are not on the street or having to live in the over priced mouldy places up for rent. A bank will not lend to you though because you arent employed but will happily lend to someone who has a job today earning X amount but might loose it tomorrow because the wind changes in the accounts department or you take up drinking and loose the job. Inglenookfan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
inglenookfan Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Last post tonight.... I wonder in which country there is the best care for those who have fallen off the rails. My first breakdown, and i dont use this word lightly, was around 2001 when i lived in Sweden. My then fiance called the rescue team(no messing about talking to NHS equivalent plebs) who came to the flat and assessed my condition. I was told it was a good idea i go to hospital so i went with them. Standard procedure from then on is time on a secure ward to assess if you are a danger to yourself or anyone else followed by gradual steps like out of the ward with a nurse for a smoke/cuppa and then out into the garden on your own then 'day release' to go home for a weekend then back in the ward during the week. After several weeks i got to go home. I have never been treated so humanly with so few drugs in any health service. Just gradual steps with assessments here and there with shrinks and a rigid routine applied gently. There were a couple of long termers on the ward who had jobs. It was thier home. I spent most of the time playing chess and talking to a young lad whos parents mistook for an ashtray. His body was absolutely covered in burns from cigs(just sit back and think about that for a few mins). Incredibly he was still after years of that a good person but surely only because the right help was available. I understand the dutch have some really successful models for mental bealth care and care of the elderly. Anyone have any other examples that we could adopt here? Inglenookfan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
inglenookfan Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianusa Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Interesting to read all these accounts as its really no different from the same experiences over here. Having grown up with a policeman as a father, invariably heard tales of hard times in the thirties and forties when folks were ill paid if they worked and basically only supported by the Salvation Army and the dole. People got drunk, they had fights especially in certain areas of town with a certain reputation; most towns had a place like that and were to be avoided. That was then; now there is a huge undereducated, underclass, still ill paid and supported by the same worthy support groups under new names who now have to contend with a huge drug problem which is supported by robberies, prostitution and other crimes by people who started off with wrong choices or wrong parents. The problem is doubly compounded by the social changes over the years and the higher population numbers nowadays. Millions more with the same problems! Like it or not, most of us are prejudiced in one way or another. Most of us have standards of society, privileged though they may be, that we aspired to and achieved. We live in a nice house in a nice town that represents life as we intended. Others have also reached their goals in life and may feel that the homeless represent a threat to their security with a different standard of living. Lurid stories of robbery, begging and as most sleep in camps in the woods, hikers and joggers being groped and assaulted. Some stand by traffic lights to bother motorists for a hand out but they always seem to have enough money for alcohol and cigarettes. They are moved on by authorities only to return and go through the same process again and again so where is the solution? Governments only have so much to spend whether it be from the national or local. While it sounds good to welcome thousands more into this situation, it will be up to future generations to sort it all out but how it will all happen, remains the problem. We may have to live with the situation but we don't have to like it! Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Anyone who turns thier nose up at what they deem to be a hopeless druggie , or believe thier are more fakers than not AND are appalled by the dirty people blocking thier rose tinted view of this society, should read earlier posts and have a good think before posting again. It is also not a thread for jokes. We aren't born with booze in one hand and a joint in the other. It gets out of control due to reasons and that could be from being born on the wrong side of the tracks, or going to a lovely local school in your freshly pressed uniform, with a belly full of porridge for another session with the headmaster and his calluding school nurse. You may have been born with a silver spoon in your mouth but other kids end up with the crack spoon. Inglenookfan Probably time to lock this thread now. You've obviously had some bad experiences , but now your going to attack those more fortunate than yourself, and this probably isn't the place to continue. I wasn't born with either a sliver spoon or a crack pipe so i don't have a chip on either shoulder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted October 23, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted October 23, 2016 Probably time to lock this thread now. ..... I'm not so sure. I read into Inglenookfan's post that where we end up is often determined by where we start from whether that be the result of good fortune or bad fortune. I don't see this as being an attack on those more fortunate more a plea for understanding. It's true that we need not be passengers through life but to have an effect on our future sometimes we need help to get into a position to do this, breaking the cycle of despair and deprivation. In the UK the gap between rich and poor is wide and is increasing, it is perhaps time for an adjustment to even out the worst of this inequality, studies have shown that the more equal a society is the happier it members are, both those at the bottom and those at the top. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted October 23, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 23, 2016 Alot of people could do with experiencing a situation and the effects of it. Just one week of abuse and one week 30-40 years later as a course. I will pay for you to attend. Inglenookfan Edit..... i dont mean this as a wierd punishment thing. Pure education to guide the humane side. Some respected 'celebs' did a homeless experience on TV recently. They could, in the main, not hack it and found the whole experience frightening and very saddening indeed. I do hope something positive came of that? Today I ask you to please remember the line of the song...."Would you walk by on the other side...........?" Thank you Phil Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted October 23, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 23, 2016 Probably time to lock this thread now. You've obviously had some bad experiences , but now your going to attack those more fortunate than yourself, and this probably isn't the place to continue. I wasn't born with either a sliver spoon or a crack pipe so i don't have a chip on either shoulder. I do not want to put words in anyone's mouth but I suspect ingleknook could have used the 'one' word instead of 'you'. I have no doubts that he wasn't having a go at me or anyone else and it is refreshing to hear from someone that has 'been there' and is here now. On R4 at this very moment (09.40) there is a piece on Homelessness. Finland has a scheme called Housing First. This scheme seems to work. Thanks Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 I'm not so sure. I read into Inglenookfan's post that where we end up is often determined by where we start from whether that be the result of good fortune or bad fortune. I don't see this as being an attack on those more fortunate more a plea for understanding. It's true that we need not be passengers through life but to have an effect on our future sometimes we need help to get into a position to do this, breaking the cycle of despair and deprivation. In the UK the gap between rich and poor is wide and is increasing, it is perhaps time for an adjustment to even out the worst of this inequality, studies have shown that the more equal a society is the happier it members are, both those at the bottom and those at the top. Neil, With all due respect that sounds a bit like communism , I think we need to remember those with wealth very frequently worked incredibly hard to obtain it .For instance Mr Dyson. Now I appreciate there are those in society that need help financially or otherwise, yes that's obvious and I'm taxed to death to cover this country's social bill every month. What I massively resent ( and I'm not implying anyone in here ) is the prejudice from the incapable, aspiration less or otherwise unable that this is being born " with a silver spoon ". A few but not many got their wealth this way , but not many. I've felt this prejudice myself. I won't comment further , I've been sucked into a debate I want no part of. I come here for toy trains not to be made angry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Neil, With all due respect that sounds a bit like communism , I think we need to remember those with wealth very frequently worked incredibly hard to obtain it .For instance Mr Dyson. Now I appreciate there are those in society that need help financially or otherwise, yes that's obvious and I'm taxed to death to cover this country's social bill every month. What I massively resent ( and I'm not implying anyone in here ) is the prejudice from the incapable, aspiration less or otherwise unable that this is being born " with a silver spoon ". A few but not many got their wealth this way , but not many. I've felt this prejudice myself. I won't comment further , I've been sucked into a debate I want no part of. I come here for toy trains not to be made angry. Most people on benefits are in work; or pensioners. Try running a house and family on the minimum wage. Those with wealth have either inherited it, beggared their employees, or just been plain lucky Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
inglenookfan Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 I do not want to put words in anyone's mouth but I suspect inglkenook could have used the 'one' word instead of 'you'. I have no doubts that he wasn't having a go at me or anyone else and it is refreshing to hear from someone that has 'been there' and is here now. On R4 at this very moment (09.40) there is a piece on Homelessness. Finland has a scheme called Housing First. This scheme seems to work. Thanks Phil Yes it really should have been the word ONE or the words SOME PEOPLE . I do have friends who own farms passed down generations and ownseveral classic cars. I am not jealous or hateful towards them because of it and i only get upset when there is the hint of "us and them" and please can the dirty people be hidden. I used the silver spoon vs. crack spoon purely as descriptors for the 2 very extremes in our society. Anyone who isnt angry in the first place at having to contribute towards helping people hopefully got what i meant. Inglenookfan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted October 23, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 23, 2016 Most people on benefits are in work; or pensioners. Try running a house and family on the minimum wage. Those with wealth have either inherited it, beggared their employees, or just been plain lucky The funny thing is that the harder I work the luckier I've become. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
inglenookfan Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 The funny thing is that the harder I work the luckier I've become. The word to focus on is WEALTH. Many work hard and get lucky here and there but never experience wealth. Inglenookfan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted October 23, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 23, 2016 The word to focus on is WEALTH. Many work hard and get lucky here and there but never experience wealth. Inglenookfan Luck has nothing to do with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted October 23, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 23, 2016 Please don't get sidetracked into the I work hard and deserve my money situation guys. The OP was about homeless people being let down by a system and I thought there were some really moving and informed comments following this. It would be great if the discussion just stuck to that area. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Most people on benefits are in work; or pensioners. Try running a house and family on the minimum wage. Those with wealth have either inherited it, beggared their employees, or just been plain lucky Rubbish. Get that chip off your shoulders. I've worked in my industry 25 years to get where I am today. I started on £250 a month retainer, I earn more now, because I earned it.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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