GWR Points and Signals on a BLT

[BG John]

I'm currently working on finally getting my Abbotsbridge EM gauge BLT working, and have a couple of queries on points and signals. The layout is set somewhere on the GWR in 1905. This is the current position:

 

 

It's half a station, with the rest in the fiddle yard. The exit to the fiddle yard will be hidden by overbridges (rare on the prototype, but I have plenty of explanations/excuses ready!). The platform is marked on the baseboard, and the only pointwork will be the crossover in the foreground.

 

Q1: Would the two points/turnouts/switches/whatever of the crossover move together, or would they move one after the other? It's simple to do either, so I may as well get it right.

 

Q2: Would there be a starter signal at the end of the platform? It could be difficult to see one beyond the bridge. If so,

1. Would all trains have to start from the platform road?
2. Would the signal have to be off for all shunting and light engine movements past it?

Q3: Would there be any other signals in the visible part of the station? I'm assuming that the signal box is on the other side of the bridge, unless someone convinces me it wouldn't be in real life.

 

I'm pretty sure I know the answer to Q2, and hope the answer to Q3 is no, as the electrickery is getting complicated, and I've run out of connections for servos to the Arduino controlling it. I could add more, but it's getting to the limit of my brain capacity already!

[RailWest]

Cue the Stationmaster ? :-)

 

Q1: Would the two points/turnouts/switches/whatever of the crossover move together, or would they move one after the other?

 

Unless there were circumstances not clear from your picture, then "normally" (usual caveat!) both would be operated from the same lever and hence move simultaneously.

 

Q2: Would there be a starter signal at the end of the platform?

 

Yes. Whether on, or beyond, the end of the platform depends on how far towards the 'bridge' you can put it without it fouling the siding to the right.

 

Would all trains have to start from the platform road?

 

Well, passenger trains would, but in theory non-passenger trains could start from any road.

1. Would the signal have to be off for all shunting and light engine movements past it?
   

That would depend upon what signal - if any - was assumed to be further in advance beyond the bridge and whether or not the line was clear all the way to that signal.

 

Q3: Would there be any other signals in the visible part of the station? I'm assuming that the signal box is on the other side of the bridge, unless someone convinces me it wouldn't be in real life.

 

The only other signals likely to be visible would be one or two ground-signals for moves over the crossover. Depending upon exactly where you might put the SB on this side of the bridge, if the visibility of the far side was deemed to be poor then you might indeed put it on the far side. In that case, then it could be argued that - as the signalman would not then have good visibility of it from the far side of the bridge - the crossover would be worked by an adjacent ground-frame (released by the SB), in which case it would not have any ground-signals.

 

And I bet your thought they were simple Qs that would get simple answers ! :-)

[The Johnster]

A few further comments.  The engine release crossover must have a facing point lock on the platform road as passenger carrying stock will run over it, however briefly.  This is important to know if you are going to model a ground frame, as the lever for the point lock (painted blue) must be included, or if you are going to model the point rodding.  Movements through a ground frame worked engine release of this sort were usually hand signalled by the person working the ground frame, who at a small station of this sort is usually the fireman.  

 

You could model the starter signal on the end of the platform, and one for the loop, and possibly one for the bay road unless that is intended to be part of your goods yard and not a running road.  Much depends on how you imagine the station to be laid out on the other side of the bridge.  They could equally be beyond the bridge, as sighting from a loco in the platform or loop roads would be under the bridge and not an issue; it is not necessary for drivers to have to view them from a distance further back as they would if this were a through station!  Another possibility is to model the part of the splitting home signal that would be visible above the bridge parapet; this would have a board to indicate access to the platform road and, set lower and to it's right as a driver would read it, one for the loop road, and possibly one to the leff of it at the same height for the bay, if that's a bay.  This signal needs to be far back enough to be the other side of the imaginary pointwork that gives access to the loop and bay roads.

[BG John]

Thanks. Both replies are very helpful. I'm undecided on the signal, which is annoying as I'm about to do the wiring and write the software for whatever I do. I'll see how complicated it gets, and use that as the way to decide . It would be a nice feature to have on a model railway, even if I don't get it 100% prototypical! It would have to be at the end of the platform, on the right hand side of the track. The track behind the platform is part of the goods yard, not a bay platform. It's all a bit tight due to the need to make the tracks align to the fiddle yard sector plate.

 

The ground frame could be good news. Would it have been an open frame (in 1905), or in a cabin? Not trying to apply any pressure to that answer, but I happen to need a small building to hide a point servo! If I can get away with a building, does anyone do a suitable 4mm scale kit, to save me a bit of work?

 

I'll make both points switch together. It saves writing a couple of lines of code in the software.

 

I'm thinking of setting up the signal, if I include it, so it can only be off if the crossover and fiddle yard are set for the platform. If I can do it, I've also thought of wiring the platform road so a loco can only run towards the fiddle yard when it's off, or from the fiddle yard when it's on. That would force the operator to actually operate the signal! The loco direction is the tricky bit, as the controller is separate from the rest of the electronics. It's all getting a bit complicated, but it's fun doing it, so I don't care, as long as it works .

[RailWest]

Two further comments from me...

 

1. I would disagree about the statement that the crossover must have a FPL on the platform road end. Although no doubt some examples can be quoted where it was provided, "generally" the GWR did not provide them in such locations. There has been much correspondence about this issue on other threads here.

 

2. As regards whether (a) there would be a 'starting signal' from the loop or (b) bracket(s) on the Down Home leading to the loop and the yard, then I would suggest the former would probably just be a ground-disc. The latter is a more tricky question and again probably - given the stated circa-1905 period - dolls on a bracket might well have been provided, but certainly in later years discs on the ground were more common. 

[The Johnster]

Agreed the loop exit signal could be a ground disc, which would infer the existence of an advance starter further out; a train cannot be allowed into the section on a shunt signal, and a single line section would not have a 'limit of shunt' board.

 

I doubt the ground frame would be covered over in a location of this sort; there is no need to provide shelter for men operating it and it is only used for short periods at a time.  I would be open to the elements, and have a telephone to contact the signalbox when release is required; the signalman releases it electrically, and the man operating it withdraws the brass key to unlock the frame and use the levers.  2 levers, a black painted one to operate both points simultaneously, and blue painted one for the fpl, which is required if the usual method of working is to set back after the loco runs around so that the train lies over this turnout.  I suspect that would be the practice in your case in order to position coaches close to the station building, and provide weather protection for the passengers if there is a canopy..  The telephone and key release are in a white painted cabinet alongside the frame.

[RailWest]

>>>Agreed the loop exit signal could be a ground disc, which would infer the existence of an advance starter further out; a train cannot be allowed into the section on a shunt signal....

Well, while I would agree that an Advanced Starter might be expected, it was not always the case. For example, there was not one at Princetown and trains left the yard under the authority of a ground-disc.

>>..and a single line section would not have a 'limit of shunt' board.

I would certainly agree with that :-) despite what one may see on some 'heritage' lines these days....

Agreed the loop exit signal could be a ground disc, which would infer the existence of an advance starter further out; a train cannot be allowed into the section on a shunt signal, and a single line section would not have a 'limit of shunt' board.

[BG John]

Shame about the ground frame building. I'll have to find something else to cover the servo now!

[The Stationmaster]

Two further comments from me...

 

1. I would disagree about the statement that the crossover must have a FPL on the platform road end. Although no doubt some examples can be quoted where it was provided, "generally" the GWR did not provide them in such locations. There has been much correspondence about this issue on other threads here.

 

2. As regards whether (a) there would be a 'starting signal' from the loop or (b) bracket(s) on the Down Home leading to the loop and the yard, then I would suggest the former would probably just be a ground-disc. The latter is a more tricky question and again probably - given the stated circa-1905 period - dolls on a bracket might well have been provided, but certainly in later years discs on the ground were more common. 

 

Generally agree, especially in respect of the FPL on the release crossover as they were quite a rarity on the GWR, but the biggy is in respect of the 'tricky question' as it is very date dependent.  For 1905 I think there are two alternatives and a ground disc (or one mounted on the signal post) is not among them.  Thus at some small branch stations there might not be any sort of fixed signal at all and the move would be handsignalled but if a fixed signal is provided it would take the form of a centre pivot arm mounted on the side of the main signal post on a very small bracket - rather a nice looking thing (to my mind) and rarely modelled.

 

Just for you I very fortuitously took a photo of just such a signal over 40 years ago not long before it departed to the scrap heap and it is at bottom left in the multitude shown in the pic below.  In this case it is fixed to a tubular steel signal post but earlier photos suggest that it had been removed, bracket an' all, from the timber post signal which had been there previously.  Hardly surprising in some respects as this type of arrangement was regarded as obsolete by 1920 and was no longer appearing in new work by then having been replaced by a proper bracket structure however this renewal at Slough in the 1950s was in a very constrained site (even the main arm is shortened for clearance reasons) so obviously they decided the simplest thing was to recover the arm and fitting off the old signal.

 

By the way there is no problem at all in allowing a  train into a single line section from a ground disc signal and there have even been instances of such signals being provided with token release (albeit in more modern times.  The decider really is whether or not trains will start away from the sidings and if that was the case a 'Siding Signal' (with a ring on the arm) would usually be provided.