Cheshire Lines Committee goods rolling stock

[Compound2632]

Does anyone know of a reliable source of information about the goods rolling stock of the Cheshire Lines Committee?

 

My interest has been piqued by the Board of Trade report into an accident at Whitacre on the Midland Railway on 18 August 1903. These reports give valuable first-hand information ito the composition of trains, frequently giving the type and running number of all the passenger carriages involved, and goods stock also, if damaged. One of the trains involved in this accident was the 10:40 am Class B goods train from Birmingham Central Goods Station to Ancoats (Manchester), via Derby and the Peak Forest line one presumes. The train was made up of 19 loaded and 4 empty wagons. Among the casualties - mostly Midland vehicles including some refrigerator vans - were a L&YR goods wagon No. 23587 and two CLC wagons, Nos. 2037 and 1647, all three described as "broken up". These wagon would have been being returned to their parent systems after having been consigned to Birmingham from L&Y and CLC stations respectively, whether empty or with a return load is not stated. From the circumstances of the accident, they were clearly in the front nine vehicles in the train.

 

This snippet would justify a CLC wagon or two on my "Midland north of Brum c. 1903" layout, if only I had reliable information!

 

My understanding is that although locomotives were provided by the MSLR / GCR, the Joint Committee owned the passenger and goods rolling stock. I understand that the passenger stock was built to MSLR / GCR designs, or based on their design practice, though with much built by private builders not the MSLR / GCR workshops; from the very little I can glean this seems to be the case for goods stock also. I only know three photos, two in Midland Style, both Gloucester Carriage & Wagon Co. officials:

 

1. 10 ton 3-plank dropside wagon No. 3307, built 1896, in a livery style which, from the even less I know about MSLR wagons, would appear to be MSLR livery but with CHESHIRE LINES replacing M S & L; the shape of the V-iron seems to be that used by the MSLR; the wagon looks to be very similar to the type that Bill Bedford (Mousa Models) lists as GCR diagram 2.

 

2. 10 ton van No. 515 of 1906, lettered in the familiar serif style (18" tall?) adopted by the GCR, but C L replacing G C. The black ironwork in this photo I suspect to be non-standard.

 

3. In Midland Wagons, Vol. 1 Plate 44, a standard Midland D363 10 ton covered goods wagon built for the CLC, No. 1446 and serif C L about 12" tall, laid out on the X-framed sliding door in the usual Midland style. Undated but probably 1910 or later.

 

 

[PenrithBeacon]

https://www.igg.org.uk/rail/00-app2/joint/clc.htm Has a bit of information.

CLC wagons were divided between the LNER & LMS c1930

Edited December 16, 2018 by PenrithBeacon

[iak]

CLC wagon stock was provided in the main by the constituent companies - MR,GCR(MSLR) & GNR...

The relevant Tatlow volumes list the stock built and when. Obviously, the Essery MR books cover the relevant stock they built.

Articles on modelling CLC stock written by David Goodwin are to be found in the Railway Modeller from the mid 1980's.

Edited December 16, 2018 by iak

[Compound2632]

Obviously, the Essery MR books cover the relevant stock they built.

 

I'm afraid that's not obvious. There is just the one photo I listed in Midland Wagons, with no information on quantities or dates. The Litchurch Lane Lot List does include vehicles built for the S&DJR, but not for the CLC.

 

Listings for Tatlow's Vol. 2 state that it covers the LNER Southern Area i.e. ex-GC, ex-GN, and ex-GE wagons, which suggests that it might also include those wagons absorbed from the CLC in 1930: can you confirm this? The problem with these Grouping-era volumes is that their pre-Grouping coverage is skewed by the criterion of survival at Grouping. I don't know whether this is true of Tatlow's LNER volumes. I'd be glad if the extent of his coverage could be clarified, as second-hand copies command about the same price as a brand new copy of LNWR Wagons Vol. 3, where I know what I'm getting!

Edited December 16, 2018 by Compound2632

[PenrithBeacon]

First I’ve heard about Midland building stock for CLC. My understanding has always been the the MS&L and it’s successors so that Gorton could repair as required, the GNR repair shops being too far away to be cost effective. From memory, it’s a long time ago when I last read through the CLC minutes, this was one of the first decisions the CLC board took in 1865. The MR didn’t join until later after the Liverpool Central fiasco.

[Compound2632]

First I’ve heard about Midland building stock for CLC. My understanding has always been the the MS&L and it’s successors so that Gorton could repair as required, the GNR repair shops being too far away to be cost effective. From memory, it’s a long time ago when I last read through the CLC minutes, this was one of the first decisions the CLC board took in 1865. The MR didn’t join until later after the Liverpool Central fiasco.

 

I suspect it was a one-off activity - maybe the Midland had spare capacity at a time when Gorton or the private builders didn't. 

 

The Midland took a third share in the CLC as soon as it got its line to Manchester, not long after the GN & MSL Joint Committee had been formed - 1867. 

[iak]

 

I have been remiss in not giving the reference for the CLC van built by the MR I mentioned. It is actually the Railway Modeller for June 1983, page 228 – the article is titled “Vans for Cheshire Lines…”

 

David Goodwin produced an article on how to make 10T MR vans from the Slaters 8T kits – of course Slaters then brought out the blasted thing as a kit anyhow!

In it he explains and illustrates the CLC variant built in 1908 by the MR, including the brake gear and axleboxes .

 

The fount of all things CLC was Bob Miller; HMRS articles are worth trying to find. However, the LNER Society hhas recently republished these articles, not all of which I presently have.

Edited December 17, 2018 by iak

[Nick Holliday]

For an in depth account of CLC wagonry it may be worth tracking down some back copies of The LNER Society Journal. I have a random issue, Summer 2016, that has Part Seven Special Wagons of a series by R W Miller, with at least one more part due. I don't know which other issues featured this series, perhaps a Society member can enlighten you.

As far as these specialist wagons, of which there were only 23 in total, the majority were based on MSLR/GCR designs, with the remainder being to the builders' design, Craven, Metroplitan and Leeds Forge, for specific items such as tramcars and boilers.

[Nick Holliday]

I'm afraid that's not obvious. There is just the one photo I listed in Midland Wagons, with no information on quantities or dates. The Litchurch Lane Lot List does include vehicles built for the S&DJR, but not for the CLC.

 

Listings for Tatlow's Vol. 2 state that it covers the LNER Southern Area i.e. ex-GC, ex-GN, and ex-GE wagons, which suggests that it might also include those wagons absorbed from the CLC in 1930: can you confirm this? The problem with these Grouping-era volumes is that their pre-Grouping coverage is skewed by the criterion of survival at Grouping. I don't know whether this is true of Tatlow's LNER volumes. I'd be glad if the extent of his coverage could be clarified, as second-hand copies command about the same price as a brand new copy of LNWR Wagons Vol. 3, where I know what I'm getting!

In Part 2 of Essey's Midland Wagons there is a comprehensive listing of Lots, and, fortunately, the CLC ones, or at least several of them, are clearly differentiated.

Those listed that I found in a quick scan were:

Lot 604 30 covered goods vans, March 1905

Lot 605 20 cattle wagons, March 1905

Lot 635 150 open goods, December 1905

Lot 694 45 Covered goods, November 1907

Lot 707 2 Third brakes, December 1908

Lot 708 2 Third saloons, December 1908

Hardly a one-off operation, but not as significant as the others' contributions.

As for the Tatlow book, the GNR certainly provided stock to the CLC, generally to their own design, although at least one van is shown on a GCR chassis. As a result, there is no separate section for the CLC stock, but within the GNR pages, they can be easily identified, because they have a different CLC design code. They include 400 or so 3 plank Colwick wagons, over 1,100 6 plank opens, 230 covered vans of various sizes, 1 refrigerated van, with a photo showing a rather splendid lettering style. It takes rather more to unpick the GCR contingent, as they supplied examples of almost every type of wagon to the CLC, usually based on their standard designs, but much of the information is there if you want to trawl through the pages.

[PenrithBeacon]

I suspect it was a one-off activity - maybe the Midland had spare capacity at a time when Gorton or the private builders didn't.

 

The Midland took a third share in the CLC as soon as it got its line to Manchester, not long after the GN & MSL Joint Committee had been formed - 1867.

Thanks for the correction to the date. Also I haven’t taken due regard to Bob Essery’s book.

Going back to the Midland joining the CLC. The real situation wasn’t as it is portrayed in the standard books, probably because they were written before the records at TNA were freely available to all.

The MS&L decided unilaterally to expand from Brunswick docks into Liverpool and hired the GNR’s engineer to do it. The GNR took fright because it couldn’t afford it but didn’t want to loose its share in the CLC. The LNW, who had been behaving badly at Lime Street where the MSL/GNR expresses terminated, took exception as well. There was an additional complication in that the LNW and GNR had a join line and didn’t want to jeopardise that relationship. The upshot of a very sorry story was that the MR was asked to join the CLC and gained direct access to Liverpool and the very lucrative freight traffic from the city. This was a blow to the MSLR because it had a long standing policy of excluding MR from Liverpool so preserving its revenue.

If you want to see further into this it’s all in the minute books at TNA but you need the MS&L GNR MR LNW and LNW/GNR jnt records and cross reference them. It’s a complicated business which is probably why the standard histories just say that the MR was ‘invited ‘!

[Guy Rixon]

Listings for Tatlow's Vol. 2 state that it covers the LNER Southern Area i.e. ex-GC, ex-GN, and ex-GE wagons, which suggests that it might also include those wagons absorbed from the CLC in 1930: can you confirm this? The problem with these Grouping-era volumes is that their pre-Grouping coverage is skewed by the criterion of survival at Grouping. I don't know whether this is true of Tatlow's LNER volumes. I'd be glad if the extent of his coverage could be clarified, as second-hand copies command about the same price as a brand new copy of LNWR Wagons Vol. 3, where I know what I'm getting!

 

I think it's volume 1 for the GN, GCR and GE, but yes, it does give some details of stock built by the GCR for CLC and has some pictures. I can't check details right now as I'm at work. IIRC, the details of building dates are slightly more complete for GCR than for the other companies. I can look this evening and report back.

 

EDIT: having looked at Tatlow vol1, I find that there are nine pictures of CLC wagons, of which four show brake vans. One picture shows a drop-sided wagon of 1896 in the livery before the large CL lettering. The building dates are indeed more complete than for other railways covered in that book.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Guy Rixon

[Poor Old Bruce]

I'm hiding already before I dare say this. I have photocopies of a CLC Wagon Diagram Book, courtesy of a friend in the C&W drawing office in Derby (actually it was the wife!). As well as the diagrams, it lists the running numbers as well (but some pages are not ever so clear). It depends how desperate anyone is for the information before I can dig it out and scan it.

[iak]

Statements like that are always going to be a double edged sword.

Certainly got me dribbling.....

[Compound2632]

In Part 2 of Essey's Midland Wagons there is a comprehensive listing of Lots, and, fortunately, the CLC ones, or at least several of them, are clearly differentiated.

Those listed that I found in a quick scan were:

Lot 604 30 covered goods vans, March 1905

Lot 605 20 cattle wagons, March 1905

Lot 635 150 open goods, December 1905

Lot 694 45 Covered goods, November 1907

Lot 707 2 Third brakes, December 1908

Lot 708 2 Third saloons, December 1908

Hardly a one-off operation, but not as significant as the others' contributions.

As for the Tatlow book, the GNR certainly provided stock to the CLC, generally to their own design, although at least one van is shown on a GCR chassis. As a result, there is no separate section for the CLC stock, but within the GNR pages, they can be easily identified, because they have a different CLC design code. They include 400 or so 3 plank Colwick wagons, over 1,100 6 plank opens, 230 covered vans of various sizes, 1 refrigerated van, with a photo showing a rather splendid lettering style. It takes rather more to unpick the GCR contingent, as they supplied examples of almost every type of wagon to the CLC, usually based on their standard designs, but much of the information is there if you want to trawl through the pages.

 

I have to beg iak's pardon most profusely. My only defence is that I rarely look beyond c. 1902 in the Lot List, as that's my period of interest. At that date, it would seem safe to assume that most stock was of MSL / GC design with some GN input and no Midland; and Tatlow Vol. 1 is my friend. I have found a copy at a reasonable price and have placed an order.

 

Many thanks to all who have responded.

[pharrc20]

The Manchester Locomotive Society holds the CLC collection from Bob Miller that includes his notes and photo collection. You could try contacting them.

Cheers Paul

[Poggy1165]

The thing to watch with CLC wagons is that sometimes the brake arrangements are different from the parent design. A good example being the Midland-type 10 ton van which had an arrangement more often found on the GC than the Midland. 

 

Bob Miller is a sad loss to the world as he had forgotten more about the CLC than most of us will ever know. So it's good to hear his notes are with the MLS.

[Compound2632]

Thanks again all - Tatlow's Vol. 1 arrived from Barter Books of Alnwick Station - been there, quite an Aladdin's cave! But it's gone straight under the tree.

 

The thing to watch with CLC wagons is that sometimes the brake arrangements are different from the parent design. A good example being the Midland-type 10 ton van which had an arrangement more often found on the GC than the Midland. 

 

Interesting - implying that the CLC had a resident carriage & wagon superintendent with a mind of his own. I've encountered the same with S&DJR wagons built to Midland designs, though in that case I believe the wagons were built at Highbridge. I get the impression much of the CLC stock was built by the private builders, which would give more scope for variations to the specification.

[Poggy1165]

My impression of the CLC (and I do not claim to be an expert) is that it was a meld of GC, Midland and GN practice combined with some eccentricities that were entirely its own. It's a fascinating railway that has been very sadly neglected compared to the other big "joint" lines, the S&D and M&GN. Possibly because it was "oop North" and not seen as particularly romantic. For the most part it was a prosperous and busy railway, one reason why so much of its track mileage survives to this day. Though it did have its obscure and less profitable corners.

 

I really wish Wild Swan or Lightmoor would wheel out a comprehensive book or books about the CLC, preferably with a volume devoted to the goods stock.

[Compound2632]

My impression of the CLC (and I do not claim to be an expert) is that it was a meld of GC, Midland and GN practice combined with some eccentricities that were entirely its own. It's a fascinating railway that has been very sadly neglected compared to the other big "joint" lines, the S&D and M&GN. Possibly because it was "oop North" and not seen as particularly romantic. For the most part it was a prosperous and busy railway, one reason why so much of its track mileage survives to this day. Though it did have its obscure and less profitable corners.

 

I really wish Wild Swan or Lightmoor would wheel out a comprehensive book or books about the CLC, preferably with a volume devoted to the goods stock.

 

Although second to the M&GN in route miles, it could surely claim to be the largest joint line in terms of traffic and revenue.

[corneliuslundie]

The HMRS has about two dozen photos of CLC goods stock listed on its website, plus eight drawings.

I have built two 4 mm/ft van kits and both had information about the prototypes.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

The HMRS has about two dozen photos of CLC goods stock listed on its website, plus eight drawings.

I have built two 4 mm/ft van kits and both had information about the prototypes.

Jonathan

 

Thanks - I've had a quick look through. I'm pretty sure most of those photos were taken later than my c. 1902-3 target date and many are of later designs. I notice the cattle wagon, however, has the earlier CHESHIRE LINES branding rather than the GC-style C L.

 

Apropos of the Tatlow Vol. 1, I've discoverd (a) that the Titfield Thunderbolt bookshop has it in stock for slightly less than I paid for a second-hand copy (more fool me) and (b) they also have Vol. 2, which covers H&B and M&GN as well as NE wagons...

[pharrc20]

In thr Oakwood Press book The Cheshire Lines Railway by R. Prys Griffiths originally published in 1947 gives the following figures for goods stock in 1938:

Coaching vehicles-

Luggage, Parcels, Milk, Fruit and brake vans = 8

Carriage trucks = 10

Horse boxes = 17

then

Merchandise and Mineral Vehicles-

Brake vans = 43

 

HTH Paul

[Compound2632]

I've gone through Tatlow Vol. 1 noting all the pre-1903 CLC wagons - all in the GCR section of the book. Where blocks of numbers are given, these will be additions to stock, so one can track the growth of the CLC fleet from around 2,200 c. 1891 to around 3,600 by 1900. Wagons with numbers below this range, especially ones with 3-digit numbers, are probably renewals, replacing withdrawn wagons.

 

The lowest number block I've found is 2248-2272, a batch of double bolster wagons built by Ashbury's in 1891, CLC Diagram 20 and not corresponding exactly to any GCR diagram. The conclusion I draw is that the two CLC wagons broken up in the Whitacre accident in Aug 1903, Nos. 2037 and 1647, were built c. 1888-1891 and early-mid 1880s respectively. A drawback of Tatlow's approach, like many of the superb works of reference produced by LMS Society members, is that he looks at the pre-Grouping period through a Grouping telescope: he's only interested in details of wagons that became LNER stock. Thus older designs receive very scant attention or, indeed, go unrecorded completely; even for later designs, we don't know the number built, only the quantities surviving at 1922, 1937, and 1947. For the CLC, this is exacerbated by the fact that its wagon stock only became part of the LNER record in 1930, seven years after the grouping. (Though we are given census quantities for 1926.)

 

Notwithstanding my pre-Grouping pre-griping, there is plenty to go on to produce representative CLC wagons for c. 1903. Two types in particular stand out:

 

10 ton 3-plank wagons to CLC Diagrams 2 to 5. These seem to have been a numerous type, with 330 examples extant in 1926 and number blocks 2300-2399 (built by Cravens and the M&SLR's Gorton works in 1890-2), 3300-3309 (built by Gloucester RC&W Co. 1895-6) and 3311-3399, 3521-3599 (built by Ashbury 1899/1900). One of the Gloucester-built ones, No. 3307, is illustrated - this being the photo also used in Midland Style noted in my opening post. These wagons are identical to GCR Diagram 6, evidently a numerous design, with over 3,000 extant in 1922, and including a batch built by Gloucester RC&W Co. contemporary with the CLC ones. Mousa Models does an etched brass kit for what appears to be this type of wagon, though it's described as GCR Diagram 2. That doesn't match up with Tatlow's Diagram 2, "3 plank fixed side, some with central doors".

 

10 ton 5-plank wagons to CLC Diagram 10. There were 121 of these in 1929, along with several hundred more with sheet bar, built after 1902. Tatlow has a Gloucester RC&W Co. photo of No. 3002, Nos. 2910-2958 and 2960-3009 having been built by that company in 1896. These are more-or-less identical to GCR Diagram 8, another reasonably common type, with over 2,600 extant in 1922, including a batch of 300 built by Gloucester RC&W Co. Mousa Models do an etched brass kit for this wagon.

 

Livery c. 1902/3 is an interesting question. The CLC livery style mirrored the MS&L / GC style, in MS&L days with CHESHIRE LINES in 6" high letters on the next-to-top plank, in lieu of M S & L. The MS&L style is seen in this photo of a Diagram 8 (with sheet bar) This wagon, No. 22081, is one of those built by Gloucester RC&W Co. in 1896. The MS&L changed its name to Great Central on 1 Aug 1897. How quickly did it adopt the familiar italic G C 18" lettering for goods wagons, which is seen on new construction from at least 1905? And how quickly did the CLC follow suit? For existing goods stock, I wouldn't imagine there was any special hurry to re-brand. My guess is that wagons built in the mid 1890s would still be carrying their original livery, whether MS&L or CLC, six to eight years later.  

Edited December 31, 2018 by Compound2632