Hornby Class25 - wired backwards (progress update)

[john new]

I recently bought 2nd hand a DCC ready R2121A Class 25. It runs fine except that it has been wired up backwards so needs the controller slider switch set the opposite way round to all my other locos. It has a lot of extra electrical gubbins and circuit boards inside so I am assuming that makes it DCC ready although the layout it will run on is traditional analogue.

 

If I do the obvious analogue fix of just swapping the black and red wires over at the pick-up points on the bogies and where they connect to the motor/chassis is that all that's needed? First DCC ready loco I've ever had to take to bits so don't want to make things worse by blowing up the chip.

 

Can I take the chip and and DCC plug socket out altogether as, for the foreseeable future, it will be run as an analogue DC loco. I didn't even realise it was DCC ready when I bought it as the box has no mention of it.

Edited May 30, 2019 by john new

[Pete the Elaner]

You would need to replace the chip with a blanking plate to bridge to relevant connections.

 

I suspect orange & grey are actually wrong but swapping these or red & black should correct your direction issue.

[andyman7]

As supplied none of the Hornby Class 25s were ever DCC Ready so it sounds like someone has added things and in the process swapped the polarity of the wires to the motor. Are you sure that it isn't actually still chipped? Where a loco is not pre-wired for DCC the decoder needs hardwiring in and goes straigh from non-DCC to DCC-fitted. It will still run on DC with a chip fitted unless the chip has been programmed to deactiviate this capability. 

[john new]

Thanks guys, a home made bodged in DCC set up does look plausible. Will post a photo shortly to help.

[Pete the Elaner]

As supplied none of the Hornby Class 25s were ever DCC Ready

I wasn't aware of that. I didn't know when Hornby discontinued them.

 

It may still have a DCC socket fitted, but I think this is unlikely.

I have fitted a socket in some of my older locos, but if the person who converted it couldn't be bothered to get the connections the correct way around, they would be unlikely to have bothered fitting a socket.

[john new]

On 04/01/2019 at 19:36, john new said:

Thanks guys, a home made bodged in DCC set up does look plausible. Will post a photo shortly to help.

As you can see it has a sort of electronics processor (DCC controller? decoder) plus an 8 pin plug which I assume is what the loco specific chip would go on if it was DCC chipped goes into a socket on a DCC ready loco. (Blanking plug needed for DC/analogue running) This section updated due to more knowledge on 17th March.

 

The visible side of the motor is red connected as is the pick up on the bogie wheel this side. Black is connected to the motor frame. The suppressor(?) has the orange and grey wires coming off it and a number 104.

 

Hope this helps. (Edit - Photo now loading)

Edited March 17, 2019 by john new
Updated information

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

That's a previous owner's 'doings'. Has presumably cut red, black, orange and grey off the plug, then soldered red and black to the pick ups, orange and grey to the motor brushes, for a functional mechanism. The plug simply left floating, redundant.

 

For DC operation, the simplest thing is to unsolder the decoder wires, and connect pick ups directly to brushes, restoring the original arrangement.

[Ray Von]

It has a lot of extra electrical gubbins and circuit boards inside so I am assuming that makes it DCC ready although the layout it will run on is traditional analogue.

If I do the obvious analogue fix of just swapping the black and red wires over at the pick-up points on the bogies and where they connect to the motor/chassis is that all that's needed? First DCC ready loco I've ever had to take to bits so don't want to make things worse by blowing up the chip.

Can I take the chip and and DCC plug socket out altogether as, for the foreseeable future, it will be run as an analogue DC loco. I didn't even realise it was DCC ready when I bought it as the box has no mention of it.

I think there are some posts on here that might be relevant to your situation, although not quite the same problem:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/140560-is-this-loco-dcc-ready-or-dcc-fitted/

 

Ray.

[john new]

Thanks guys. Will probably remove the 'extras' as suggested and run it as a simple. Not anti-computers in any way as use them extensively for other tasks but DCC seems far more complicated to set up than analogue and as I don't want sound not worth the investment and learning curve.

[DCB]

Sounds like a right bodge.  As far as I remember 1 brush is connected to the motor frame as standard. If  it runs Ok and both brushes are isolated simply unsolder or just pull off the brush wires and swap them over.  If one brush is connected to the motor frame strip off the DCC gubbins and sell it on eBay before you short it all out and produce lots of realistic smoke and potentially burn down the shed.

[Ray Von]

Thanks guys. Will probably remove the 'extras' as suggested and run it as a simple. Not anti-computers in any way as use them extensively for other tasks but DCC seems far more complicated to set up than analogue and as I don't want sound not worth the investment and learning curve.

Hear, hear. I'm sure DCC has many advantages over DC, but as with all "advances" in technology - the problems always seem to increase to keep pace!

[andyman7]

Sounds like a right bodge.  As far as I remember 1 brush is connected to the motor frame as standard. If  it runs Ok and both brushes are isolated simply unsolder or just pull off the brush wires and swap them over.  If one brush is connected to the motor frame strip off the DCC gubbins and sell it on eBay before you short it all out and produce lots of realistic smoke and potentially burn down the shed.

R2121A is a China made version which had the later Ringfield mechanism with all wheel pickups, doing away with each bogie block being 'live' to opposite polarity. 

[melmerby]

Interestingly I have had the reverse bodge.

Bought a DCC ready King Arthur in "Excellent condition" . Ran nice on DC.

Take top off to fit DCC chip, found a previous idiot* had removed the DCC socket and hard wired it, presumably having used a blow-torch to solder the wires, which had been replaced with thicker than original wire for the pick-ups to non-existent PCB & motor to non-existent PCB. The tender connexion wires had also be shortened.

 

As I got it cheap and I was more interested in the good body I decided to completely re-wire it properly and fit a socket rather than return it.

 

*why do they do it?

 

Keith

Edited January 5, 2019 by melmerby

[john new]

R2121A is a China made version which had the later Ringfield mechanism with all wheel pickups, doing away with each bogie block being 'live' to opposite polarity.

 

Before I disconnect anything I will be trying to find a service diagram.

[SRman]

Looking at the photo, it has a ringfield motor which confirms what others have said, that it was never DCC-ready to start with, and that this is a home-bodge job. For all that, it looks well done. If you wish to retain the decoder (for that is what is in there), swap the orange and grey wire feeds to the brushes. 

If you don't wish to retain the decoder, do as 34C suggested, cut the wires and rejoin the track feeds directly to the brushes, checking the polarity as you do so.

[Pete the Elaner]

Get the decoder read before throwing it. It may be worth selling.

They should all tell you their make & model if you put them on a programming track.

[Guest teacupteacup]

Interestingly I have had the reverse bodge.

Bought a DCC ready King Arthur in "Excellent condition" . Ran nice on DC.

Take top off to fit DCC chip, found a previous idiot* had removed the DCC socket and hard wired it, presumably having used a blow-torch to solder the wires, which had been replaced with thicker than original wire for the pick-ups to non-existent PCB & motor to non-existent PCB. The tender connexion wires had also be shortened.

 

As I got it cheap and I was more interested in the good body I decided to completely re-wire it properly and fit a socket rather than return it.

 

*why do they do it?

 

Keith

I always hard wire a decoder in to any loco that doesnt have lights fitted.  I also remove the pcb and original wiring, and replace.  That way I get familiar with the wiring runs and pick-up arrangements and while the loco is apart, check the back to backs on the wheelsets and make sure all pick-ups are touching the wheels.   I'll also take the opportunity to add more pick-ups if needed/practical 

Edited January 6, 2019 by teacupteacup

[Butler Henderson]

Before I disconnect anything I will be trying to find a service diagram.

http://www.lendonsmodelshop.co.uk/pdf/Hornby%20Service%20Sheets/No.215%20Class%2025.pdf

[Pete the Elaner]

I always hard wire a decoder in to any loco that doesnt have lights fitted.  I also remove the pcb and original wiring, and replace.  That way I get familiar with the wiring runs and pick-up arrangements and while the loco is apart, check the back to backs on the wheelsets and make sure all pick-ups are touching the wheels.   I'll also take the opportunity to add more pick-ups if needed/practical 

That is unnecessary hard work.

The socket allows you to easily swap decoders in case of a fault/failure or if you want to upgrade for any reason, or revert to DC should you ever decide to sell the loco.

Hard wiring abandons this flexibility.

[Butler Henderson]

That is unnecessary hard work.

The socket allows you to easily swap decoders in case of a fault/failure or if you want to upgrade for any reason, or revert to DC should you ever decide to sell the loco.

Hard wiring abandons this flexibility.

Maybe but its something I have done to a number of Hornby locos;

- in the M7, not having a DP2X-UK direct fit decoder to hand, by removing the socket gives room to fit a small decoder without removing any weight. This loco is perfect for hard wiring as their is an accessible tag fitted to the chassis block (one side of the pick ups), the motor contacts are readily accessible and their is then just one soldered wire joint that needs insulating for the other side of the pick ups.

- in the Adams Radial due to the socket being wired wrong.

- in some other locos simply because they were such a spiders web of excessive length cables the whole thing was neater with a hard wired decoder. Also overcomes any necessary new insulation that might be needed to the "spiders web" if the capacitor is chopped off and exposed wiring occurs. 

Edited January 7, 2019 by Butler Henderson

[Guest teacupteacup]

I dont find it hard work at all, thats why I do it, plus removing the socket can make room for a some extra weight which is very handy in small locos.  Swapping out a dud decoder wouldnt bother me as its only 4 wires.  I havent had a decoder fail on me yet though.

 

When I sell a loco, I keep the chip in it and make sure its set to run on DC, however I don't sell loco's often as I modify them in other ways (detail/respray/weather etc)

[melmerby]

I always hard wire a decoder in to any loco that doesnt have lights fitted.  I also remove the pcb and original wiring, and replace.  That way I get familiar with the wiring runs and pick-up arrangements and while the loco is apart, check the back to backs on the wheelsets and make sure all pick-ups are touching the wheels.   I'll also take the opportunity to add more pick-ups if needed/practical 

 

 

Maybe but its something I have done to a number of Hornby locos;

- in the M7, not having a DP2X-UK direct fit decoder to hand, by removing the socket gives room to fit a small decoder without removing any weight. This loco is perfect for hard wiring as their is an accessible tag fitted to the chassis block (one side of the pick ups), the motor contacts are readily accessible and their is then just one soldered wire joint that needs insulating for the other side of the pick ups.

- in the Adams Radial due to the socket being wired wrong.

- in some other locos simply because they were such a spiders web of excessive length cables the whole thing was neater with a hard wired decoder. Also overcomes any necessary new insulation that might be needed to the "spiders web" if the capacitor is chopped off and exposed wiring occurs. 

 

 

I dont find it hard work at all, thats why I do it, plus removing the socket can make room for a some extra weight which is very handy in small locos.  Swapping out a dud decoder wouldnt bother me as its only 4 wires.  I havent had a decoder fail on me yet though.

 

When I sell a loco, I keep the chip in it and make sure its set to run on DC, however I don't sell loco's often as I modify them in other ways (detail/respray/weather etc)

You lot won't like this then.

My under construction Comet GWR Mogul chassis and provided with a DCC socket:

 

 

And there will be enough lead to give it traction.

 

Keith

[john new]

http://www.lendonsmodelshop.co.uk/pdf/Hornby%20Service%20Sheets/No.215%20Class%2025.pdf

Comparing the sheet in the link (thank you for that BH) it appears the red and black are correctly attached to both power bogies but then diverted away from the suppressor/brushes connection into the DCC controller card and spliced into/connected to the red and black controller card leads instead. Grey and orange then connect back from the card to the suppressor and brushes.

 

On the DCC card to plug lead the four corresponding wires have been cut - red, black, grey and orange. Seems a right bodge, and even as a non-DCC modeller, I can't see why anyone would cut the wires like that, having presumably at some point DCC fitted it, rather than just taking out the controller card if not carrying on using a DCC chip.

 

My plan is to remove the DCC controller connections completely and put the black & red leads back to the supressor and brushes with black and red reset as per the wiring diagram.

 

Job now done. Thanks for the help.

 

As an aside, my other Hornby Cl 25 is the head code light fitted version. When were the headcode boxes changed from alpha/numeric to a plate with the two white lights? The plate/lights header option is more versatile than having what would be a wrong 4 digit headcode up.

Edited January 8, 2019 by john new

[Guest teacupteacup]

You lot won't like this then.

My under construction Comet GWR Mogul chassis and provided with a DCC socket:

 

Comet Mogul.jpg

 

And there will be enough lead to give it traction.

 

Keith

Looking good, plenty of space for a separate socket which suits you.

 

I've a kit to build that definitely wont have much space for a socket, one of these so hard wiring is my only option - and the rest of the space for some lead for traction

[Pete the Elaner]

I dont find it hard work at all, thats why I do it, plus removing the socket can make room for a some extra weight which is very handy in small locos.  Swapping out a dud decoder wouldnt bother me as its only 4 wires.  I havent had a decoder fail on me yet though.

 

When I sell a loco, I keep the chip in it and make sure its set to run on DC, however I don't sell loco's often as I modify them in other ways (detail/respray/weather etc

You earlier made it sound like you just threw the socket away by default, without even thinking about it. This would seem a little pointless in a tender loco where the socket sits in a relatively empty tender.

If space is tight then this makes a big difference.

 

I have chipped locos with decoders I later found I don't like too much (My 2 Bachmann ones totally ignore CV3 & Hornby R8249 which don't give particularly good motor control), replacing them with something different at a later date (eg a Zimo or a sound decoder). Keeping the socket makes this very easy to do.