pauliebanger Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 A short video showing Sound and Stay Alive in a Hornby R&H 48DS operated by a simple DC analogue controller. The decoder and sound project will work equally well in a 7mm model. Best regards, Paul 7 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 Gosh! So now I have to ask ... how on earth do you do stay-alive for ordinary analogue control? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted October 28, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 28, 2019 36 minutes ago, spikey said: Gosh! So now I have to ask ... how on earth do you do stay-alive for ordinary analogue control? You can’t. well, not easily: the solution might be more complicated than using DCC, but stay alive capabilities are one of the pluses for digital control, or you could go to onboard battery power - good luck fitting that in! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Regularity said: You can’t. That's what I thought. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted October 28, 2019 Author Share Posted October 28, 2019 This model has a ZIMO sound decoder and a Stay Alive capacitor pack fitted, primarilly for operation on DCC, but can be easily configured to run on DC, as in the video. Most decoders can be persuaded to do this part of the trick. What is less widely known is that ZIMO decoders can differentiate between loss of power due to a power outage (in which case the Stay Alive will begin to suppy power until track power is restored) and the reduction of voltage caused by reducing the throttle setting on an analogue controller (in which case it will reduce the speed by controlling the power to the motor, and trigger deceleration sounds in the sound project to match the road speed). The upshot is that the model can be fully controlled when on DC track power, utilise Stay Alive capacitors when track power fails temporarily and operate a sound project, including manually operated gear-changing, if that's part of the sound project. In fact the only thing you can't do is anything assigned to DCC F keys, and that's only because an analogue controller normally does not have any. I hope you also noticed that the sound continued normally when the loco was stationary and even when the direction of travel was reversed. There is another important question - how do you get a sound decoder, speaker and high capacity Stay Alive capacitor into a tiny Hornby 48DS in the frst place. LOL. Best regards, Paul 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted October 28, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 28, 2019 Aha. So, to fit stay-alive to an analogue loco, you have to fit a DCC module? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 8 hours ago, pauliebanger said: There is another important question - how do you get a sound decoder, speaker and high capacity Stay Alive capacitor into a tiny Hornby 48DS in the frst place. LOL. Best regards, Paul Time-Lord Technology. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sb67 Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 9 hours ago, pauliebanger said: There is another important question - how do you get a sound decoder, speaker and high capacity Stay Alive capacitor into a tiny Hornby 48DS in the frst place. LOL. Best regards, Paul And leave enough room for a crew! That video is superb, will we get a 'how to do it' video? Be good to know your secret Steve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted October 29, 2019 Author Share Posted October 29, 2019 6 hours ago, hartleymartin said: Time-Lord Technology. Yep, that's the secret. 'Time Lord Technology by ZIMO' Nice one, Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted October 29, 2019 Author Share Posted October 29, 2019 5 hours ago, sb67 said: And leave enough room for a crew! That video is superb, will we get a 'how to do it' video? Be good to know your secret Steve. The full story and 'Step by Step photo guide' will feature in the next issue of Hornby Magazine (issue 150 out in a couple of weeks) so I'll have to keep it under wraps for now, sorry. Best regards, Paul 1 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted October 29, 2019 Author Share Posted October 29, 2019 (edited) 14 hours ago, Regularity said: Aha. So, to fit stay-alive to an analogue loco, you have to fit a DCC module? Simon, The world is moving towards Hybrid technology so why fight it? (not saying that you are). So I put in a sound decoder* which enables Stay Alive on pure DC, seems a reasonable move since the battery powered alternatives simply will not fit. Ruston 48DS with Hybrid Drive, DC or DCC control. Wish I'd thought of that when I put the title on the video. LOL. Best regards, Paul *Select your decoder carefully, not all can run a Stay Alive capacitor on DC. Edited October 29, 2019 by pauliebanger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted October 29, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 29, 2019 It is inevitable that over time, most models will come with a hybrid drive, I think. The problem with that is the quality of the hybrid drive fitted as standard by an RTR manufacturer... I am looking forward to being able to buy one with a small wifi receiver (if I can get one about the size of my thunmbnail, why not?) so that I can choose how to control it: via the track, directly via an app, or via a wifi-based DCC system. I can then choose how to apply the power - rails or battery - independently of that decision, too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted October 29, 2019 Author Share Posted October 29, 2019 This sort of thing? https://www.s-cab.com/ Doesn't seem much of a take up, it's very expensive and lots of kit to accomodate. Whereas the 48DS solution I've shown is available now, it fits and it works. Best regards, Paul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted October 29, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 29, 2019 (edited) Something a bit like that, but not as bulky. I can't see why a simple wifi transceiver cannot be incorporated into a DCC module, to have the basic function of two-way communication with a control, and to simply pass the control signal to the module. People ask me why bother with DCC at all, but imagine, if you will, the chaos at an exhibition hall with trains stopping whilst looking for a new network, or being hijacked between operators on the same layout - not necessarily intentionally. Using a command station which is many to one (controllers) and one to many (locos) is one way of applying some order to things. DCC could still be used via the rails for accessories and non remote fitted locos, and existing command stations need to have their signal provided to a transceiver. Yes, I am aware of (and have purchased) the Tam Valley DRS. That is very nearly what I am talking about it: if it used Wifi rather than IM band radio signals, then it would do it for me. If constant power is applied via the rails, then on-board batteries can take the place of supercapacitors, simplifying wiring (forget about crossing vees, etc) by allowing a few minutes of running without power, but ensuring a reasonable continuity of supply. This obviates the needs for massive batteries. Your solution is fine for many needs: all I am saying is that we are close to having something even better, a wifi-enabled module and a slightly bigger storage capability via a small battery. Edited October 29, 2019 by Regularity Link to TV DRS added Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sb67 Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 6 hours ago, pauliebanger said: The full story and 'Step by Step photo guide' will feature in the next issue of Hornby Magazine (issue 150 out in a couple of weeks) so I'll have to keep it under wraps for now, sorry. Best regards, Paul Thanks Paul. I'll look forward to seeing that Steve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpplumy Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 We tested a ruston on my layout without the wagon. And ran over all gaps and points with ease without stopping. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5050 Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 57 minutes ago, gpplumy said: We tested a ruston on my layout without the wagon. And ran over all gaps and points with ease without stopping. Why should anyone think it wouldn't? It's a 4-wheel chassis no different to the Hornby Peckett, the Hatton's Barclay etc. and these run well without any external assistance. The 'runner' wagon seems to be a bit of 'belt and braces' thinking by Hornby! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted November 4, 2019 Author Share Posted November 4, 2019 On 29/10/2019 at 18:04, sb67 said: Thanks Paul. I'll look forward to seeing that Steve. Steve, Sooner than I expected. Hornby Magazine Issue 150 was on sale at the Spalding show on 2 November. Best regards, Paul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold JohnR Posted November 4, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 4, 2019 On 28/10/2019 at 20:07, pauliebanger said: This model has a ZIMO sound decoder and a Stay Alive capacitor pack fitted, primarilly for operation on DCC, but can be easily configured to run on DC, as in the video. Most decoders can be persuaded to do this part of the trick. What is less widely known is that ZIMO decoders can differentiate between loss of power due to a power outage (in which case the Stay Alive will begin to suppy power until track power is restored) and the reduction of voltage caused by reducing the throttle setting on an analogue controller (in which case it will reduce the speed by controlling the power to the motor, and trigger deceleration sounds in the sound project to match the road speed). The upshot is that the model can be fully controlled when on DC track power, utilise Stay Alive capacitors when track power fails temporarily and operate a sound project, including manually operated gear-changing, if that's part of the sound project. In fact the only thing you can't do is anything assigned to DCC F keys, and that's only because an analogue controller normally does not have any. I hope you also noticed that the sound continued normally when the loco was stationary and even when the direction of travel was reversed. There is another important question - how do you get a sound decoder, speaker and high capacity Stay Alive capacitor into a tiny Hornby 48DS in the frst place. LOL. Best regards, Paul Paul, Would a regular ZIMO decoder do the job as well. If so, what one would you recommend? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted November 4, 2019 Author Share Posted November 4, 2019 John, If by 'regular' you mean non-sound, then yes as the non-sound decoder software is based very closely on that of the sound decoders. There are several types which would do the trick. ZIMO offer just about the widest range of decoder types, sizes and feature sets of all manufacturers so there's bound to be at least one which will be 'perfect' and often several more which can offer a very good match to your requirements. I don't use non-sound decoders, so I can't speak from personal experience, but the MX617 looks ideal and the MX630 is a possibility too. Digitrains are the longest established ZIMO specialists so they will be able to give you unrivalled expert advice. Give them a call. Best regards, Paul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 On 30/10/2019 at 00:41, pauliebanger said: This sort of thing? https://www.s-cab.com/ Doesn't seem much of a take up, it's very expensive and lots of kit to accomodate. Whereas the 48DS solution I've shown is available now, it fits and it works. Best regards, Paul The great thing about Stanton S-cab is that it will pick up just about any sort of power to charge the battery. Doesn't matter if its the 16VAC from DCC, or a regular analogue controller. The only trouble for me, is that I kept putting off going to DCC to the point where conversion is going to be a bit expensive for my to do in one hit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted November 5, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) 57 minutes ago, hartleymartin said: The great thing about Stanton S-cab is that it will pick up just about any sort of power to charge the battery. That's true of any carefully designed battery powered system, although to be fair to Stanton, it is wired into the circuitry. Going OT a bit, but there is this receiver module from Fosworks: http://fosworks.co.uk/OMNIFRx24.html and it's associated transmitter/controller. Also, there is (news to me) this US outfit, WifiTrax. Fit a receiver before your DCC decoder, and operate wirelessly from your Android or Windows phone. Edited November 5, 2019 by Regularity Usual disclaimer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 Yeah, but I play with trains to get off my phone and computer! 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted November 5, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 5, 2019 1 hour ago, hartleymartin said: Yeah, but I play with trains to get off my phone and computer! So do I, but there is potential there to link wirelessly to dedicated controllers not based on phones - I want something more tactile. For diesels, something like this: www.protothrottle.com I am told that some people are working on a steam version. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted November 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 29/10/2019 at 11:52, pauliebanger said: Simon, The world is moving towards Hybrid technology so why fight it? (not saying that you are). So I put in a sound decoder* which enables Stay Alive on pure DC, seems a reasonable move since the battery powered alternatives simply will not fit. Ruston 48DS with Hybrid Drive, DC or DCC control. Wish I'd thought of that when I put the title on the video. LOL. Best regards, Paul *Select your decoder carefully, not all can run a Stay Alive capacitor on DC. All I can add to this is that I bought the issue of Hornby Magazine just for this article, and an impressive feat it is, Paul. Very impressive technology. Even more impressive use of technology! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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