GW Branch Line - A Cellar Layout?

[Keith Addenbrooke]

I’m wanting to explore the possibility of a layout in our cellar.  This is not something I’ve investigated before, so for clarity I’ve split my thinking into three posts following this opener:

 

1.  A layout in the Cellar? Is it possible - I had previously dismissed it due to the damp.

2.  The Layout Space and Criteria: “Givens” (or Essentials) and “Druthers” (or Preferences).

3.  Layout Ideas to get me started – but am I missing something?

 

In some respects this thread does follow a previous conversation: GW Adventure - a track planning tale, but as there are significant changes to the criteria, I’ve set this up as a fresh topic.  I hope that's OK.  Keith.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Keith Addenbrooke]

A layout in the Cellar?

 

As we don’t have a useable loft, our cellar is used for storage.  I’m not looking to fill it with a dream layout (for which I have neither time nor budget), and regular access to the storage crates is required, but there is still a potential 10’ x 8’ (nominal) space for a layout in the top right corner:

 

 

 

The issue with this late Victorian cellar is damp.  It seems to come up through the floor, and is most noticeable in an alcove on the “North” side of the room.  We run a dehumidifier every day to monitor the humidity, and I’m interested in tips on things to do / avoid in this situation.  We do not own the house, and the cellar is excluded from the rooms to be maintained as living space (I knew this before we moved in), so while suggestions involving the building will be of interest I may not be able to apply them here.  I don’t intend to fix the layout to the walls – it would be free-standing.  There is a small bay window and one central light in the low ceiling.  Is it useable?

 

I already have a separate micro-layout BLT under construction, and can move this to the cellar to see how it fares: the Sundeala baseboards it uses were stored problem-free in the cellar before use.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke
Reinstating photos

[Keith Addenbrooke]

The Layout Space and Criteria

 

The potential layout space looks like this:

 

 

 

To fit over storage crates the layout will be higher than I would prefer, with a minimum 45” clearance below the framework.  Above 50” my comfortable reach is only about 2’ so it would be wise to avoid hidden tracks concealed behind other features.  I would prefer to avoid lift-out sections, and “duck-unders” are ruled out.

 

“Givens” (or Essentials)

 

1.  As before, a OO-Gauge DC-controlled GW Branch Line (flexible period: 1915-1945); Code 100 Streamline Track with points Medium or above – I already have a supply of Code 100 track, and run a couple of Airfix locos.  I can use Setrack Curves with a min. 20” or 3rd Radius (note: as shown by @Harlequin in the previous thread, this minimum can be flexed a bit if needed).  Single track is fine.

 

2.  Design train length is up to 3 coaches plus loco (40”), with equivalent length Goods Trains.  At least one station with a full length platform and Station building, a couple of Goods Sidings with a Goods Shed and Loading Dock, a single road Engine Shed for the Branch loco and a Coach Siding.

 

I already had a Ratio Station kit in stock, which I’ve started building and want to include:

 

 

 

 

“Druthers” (or Preferences)

 

1.  In a change to my previous thinking, I am looking at end-to-end or Terminus-Fiddle Yard schemes for this project; a continuous run is not essential as long as there is at least a “U-shaped” run (which I liked the look of elsewhere: Back to the beginning - home based room layout in 2mm by @Lacathedrale).  I’m thinking of a rural setting, not a “Minories” type terminus.

 

2.  While I want the platform and Station building on-stage, I’d look at a “reverse-Bitsa” plan with the station throat off-stage, and one of my favourite layouts does that (Tawcombe, BRM Feb. 2013).

 

3.  I’m not aiming to create a detailed model of somewhere, but if it’s possible to work back from a prototype it gives access to WTT’s, pictures and information for a plausible layout.  However, reading Paul Karau’s combined volume of Branch Line Termini confirms how spread out many BLTs were (I like Ashburton - apart from the kickback siding - but few BLTs were even that compact to start with).

 

4.  I’d prefer a “walk-in” style of scheme, and have to rule out anything with a duck-under, but could consider a narrow lift-out section across the operating aisle if the case was convincing.  I don’t need tunnels and want to avoid hidden tracks concealed behind other features (due to the limited reach across high baseboards).  For moving storage crates, the ideal aisle width is 4’.

 

5.  Less is more…the simpler a scheme is, the more likely I am to build it!  I’m thinking of an L-girder sub-frame for quick construction (and cost reasons) but I’d still want to avoid gradients.

 

6.  Due to the central position of the sole room light, low ceiling and high baseboards, a high scenic divide down the middle of the main 8’ x 4’ section of the layout is not feasible.  Other than that, a so-called “sincere” scheme where a track only crosses a scene once is a preference.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke
Reinstating photos

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Layout Ideas to get me started

 

I see this as a small layout - I don’t want to overextend my thinking.  It is years since I had CJF’s “60 Plans for Small Railways (3rd ed.)” so I’ve bought the newer (1989!) version to get reacquainted.  Sadly, some of my favourites didn’t make it into the redrawing, including the extras at the end – among them the 6’ x 1’ Seaton-based terminus Phil Parker used for the BRM BLT project Edgeworth (also using the Ratio Castle Cary Station kit).

 

A lot of CJF schemes run “out-and-back,” but that’s not for me (apologies to @Zomboid ).  While I’ve previously favoured a continuous run, I’ve taken note of points made by @Chimer and @Harlequin elsewhere that, once a train has passed through a scene it should – after a suitable gap – reappear from the direction it went.  For a branch train shuttling up and down this makes even more sense than on a main or commuter line (where there can be a procession each way).  With restricted space I’m looking at end-to-end schemes so trains won’t reappear too easily.

 

Much of my inspiration comes from a time when layout builders had far less rolling stock, but the reason I have 3 Pannier Tanks is because I sold the 4th one , so with this being a permanent layout there is a case for a Fiddle Yard to keep more stock on the layout. 

 

None of this invalidates the previous, continuous run layout plans – they worked well for a compact, portable layout with intermediate / passing stations on a light branch line. They could fit here, but for a fixed layout a plan with a fiddle yard that wraps around the operating aisle seems preferable.

 

Some drawings:

 

I’ve sketched out 3 modules I can move around – a generic BLT and a 4-track Fiddle Yard both 6’ x 2’, and a small Intermediate Station 7’6” x 2’:

 

 

 

 

3 schemes: 

 

The first is the simplest.  It doesn’t overcrowd the space – the terminus can extend round the curve (eg: St Ives).  Alternatively a passing loop could start at the Halt and end before the terminus curve?

 

 

The second scheme has two termini – Terminus A could be my generic BLT and Terminus B perhaps an “Art of Compromise” layout (RM Oct. ’78).  While this looks like those schemes where a second terminus hides the Fiddle Yard, the 4’ reach means Terminus B and the Fiddle Yard are operated separately.  Operating potential increases at the expense of a shorter running line.

 

 

The third idea has a continuous run, but keeps both stations by the operating aisle. The old version of CJF’s 60 Plans for Small Railways had a layout with a triangular junction into the intermediate station, but the joining platform roads must have been quite short?

 

 

Although there is a continuous run, this scheme appeals to me least of the three at the moment.

 

I looked at 10’ x 8’ ideas with a station along the long top side, but the central block of storage gives me an impossible 4’ reach at the left end (and if I rotate all the storage 90 degrees the upper aisle is too narrow to move crates, plus there is more of everything by the wall where the damp is worse).

 

Before going any further, I wonder if there is something obvious I’m not seeing?

Edited October 7, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke
Reinstating photos

[Zomboid]

Since you don't want an out & back I'll suggest one. (I'm thinking of making the main Terminus into a converging, like Exmouth, Bournemouth West or Bath Green Park. I'm sure inferior railways such as the western also had such things).

 

Take the one with two termini and make "Terminus B" into a through station/ halt and then take that round to the FY, which is now double ended. No compulsion to operate it as an out & back as the FY represents the far end of both branches, but you've also got the option if you want it.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Zomboid

[ikcdab]

The Victorians didn't seem to do much with damp prevention (my 1826 house is made of cob) any so any wall or surface that contacts the ground on the other side will be damp. You might be able to build a damp proof 'box' around the layout, maybe by pinning battens to the wall and then cover in polythene then osb. The resulting airgap will help and should impact your tenancy.

Make sure you use decent mateerials for the baseboard. Avoid all fibreboards. Now maybe a time to look at celotex or kingspan for baseboard. 

What about power and light? You will want decent lighting (Led battens are ezcellent) and at least a double 13amp socket.

 

[AndyB]

Keith. 

I've had a layout suffer due to damp and once it, and the resulting mold etc gets a grip, it's a bit disheartening. Tou end up scrapping it and thinking agsin.

 

I ended up damp proof lining the room, celotex and then plaster board. I'd not be keen on investigating what the wall looks like now behind the damp proofing layer!  I suspect a mushroom farm exists! 

 

Others are better placed to advise on whether this approach would work for a cellar as opposed to the garage I modified.

 

But my gut instinct makes me ask whether all other possible spaces gave been ruled out first. 

 

Sorry to be a damp blanket on this.

[The Stationmaster]

A cellar is not really the place for a model railway unless it has been properly tanked (big bucks for a proper job) - just look at AndyB's post above and see the heartache he suffered.    Technically if a room is occupied by a model railway it becomes habitable space (which affects Council Tax banding by ut only when a house is resold) and you might get stung by Building Regulations especially in respect of access and fire precautions so it is essential to seek professional advice.  

[Keith Addenbrooke]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

A cellar is not really the place for a model railway unless it has been properly tanked (big bucks for a proper job) - just look at AndyB's post above and see the heartache he suffered.    Technically if a room is occupied by a model railway it becomes habitable space (which affects Council Tax banding by ut only when a house is resold) and you might get stung by Building Regulations especially in respect of access and fire precautions so it is essential to seek professional advice.  

Thanks, that’s really useful - so if I understand it there’s a distinction between a storage room where I go in and out to collect things, and a room used for something (in this case a model railway) where I might spend some time ‘being’ there.
 

I’d not come across that before - our previous house had a cellar which hadn’t been used for a while but we were thinking of using, but it had two exits (one directly external) and a room with a toilet, so although no-one who looked at that project mentioned building or fire regs, it may be that they’d been dealt with previously?  Again, we didn’t own that house.

 

[Important correction: the good Mrs. A has reminded me that there was discussion about a budget for emergency lighting and electrical improvements when that project was on the table - which I’d forgotten about: it wasn’t mentioned to us because it was raised by us and was work related (not for a model railway).  The second, external exit was always seen as key to that project, but already existed.  My apologies]
 

Incidentally, we were told how much tanking might cost for that cellar - I agree with your comment.  Thanks, Keith.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke
Important correction (marked)

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, AndyB said:

Keith. 

I've had a layout suffer due to damp and once it, and the resulting mold etc gets a grip, it's a bit disheartening. Tou end up scrapping it and thinking agsin.

 

I ended up damp proof lining the room, celotex and then plaster board. I'd not be keen on investigating what the wall looks like now behind the damp proofing layer!  I suspect a mushroom farm exists! 

 

Others are better placed to advise on whether this approach would work for a cellar as opposed to the garage I modified.

 

But my gut instinct makes me ask whether all other possible spaces gave been ruled out first. 

 

Sorry to be a damp blanket on this.

Andy, thanks for this - sorry to hear of your experience.  I do appreciate the advice: it may save me a lot of heartache (plus time and money) down the line.

 

I’d hoped to spend time this summer actually building a layout rather than planning, but to rush in and regret it would be worse.

 

Thanks, Keith.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, ikcdab said:

The Victorians didn't seem to do much with damp prevention (my 1826 house is made of cob) any so any wall or surface that contacts the ground on the other side will be damp. You might be able to build a damp proof 'box' around the layout, maybe by pinning battens to the wall and then cover in polythene then osb. The resulting airgap will help and should impact your tenancy.

Make sure you use decent mateerials for the baseboard. Avoid all fibreboards. Now maybe a time to look at celotex or kingspan for baseboard. 

What about power and light? You will want decent lighting (Led battens are ezcellent) and at least a double 13amp socket.

 

Thank you - your first sentence gives me the explanation I think fits the situation.

 

Could I ask what “osb” is - afraid that’s new to me.

 

I am in the unusual position of not technically being a tenant either in the house (Full disclosure: it’s a Vicarage) so the process for approval for any work I’d want to do (eg: improving electrics) would be a bit different, but noting other comments above, this plan may not be viable anyway.  Appreciate the advice - exactly what I needed today.  Thanks, Keith.

[bgman]

I would agree with Mike ( The Stationmaster ) in all respects, being a retired Building Control Inspector it became a double edged job on some occasions when finding some projects built by railway modellers in awkward situations.

Damp is an extremely expensive matter to deal with and if unchecked will cause irreparable damage to a property.

 

Placing expensive models in the mix would, with the greatest respect, be foolhardy and even if the walls were to be lined to mask the potential problem being hidden it will always come back to bite you.

 

OSB - Oriented Strand Board made up of resin bonded wood chips, similar to ply and better waterproofing qualities.

 

I hope you find a solution and are able to have the layout you wish for, but please not in a damp basement.

 

G  

[mike morley]

I've started but not finished two layouts located in a cellar that, despite having far, far more money thrown at it than I could either afford or justify, remains damp.  Like you, I was always aware of the possible problems the damp could cause and took steps to prevent them becoming an issue, but still managed to get caught out a few times.

For instance, having once come worryingly close to dripping molten solder in my eye when working on the underside of a baseboard, I now make sure even permanent layouts can be dismantled into sections that can be taken to somewhere better suited to being worked upon.  One thing I discovered was that a baseboard capable of being manhandled up or down a typical steep, narrow cellar staircase is considerably smaller than you might think.  The other problem became apparent when I came to dismantle the boards and discovered the 6mm ply had swollen enough to exert a vice-like grip on the 6mm coachbolts holding them together!  I ended up having to drive them out with a hammer and doubt if even that drastic measure would have been enough, had the end-frames been timber.

Another problem was the lack of headroom.  I can only stand up straight between the joists of the living room floor above, which means the layout lighting is somewhat trickier to arrange than you might expect.  My two layouts were both built before LED's became popular and the spotlights I used often resulted in frazzled ears.  After half an hour or so they made the whole cellar quite hot and the consequent extremes of temperature caused as many problems as they do in lofts and attics.

One problem I did anticipate that, to my relief, didnt happen was rusty wheel rims.  I much prefer using card for buildings but wasnt brave enough to risk it so made them all from plastic sheet.  Similarly, I thought it best not to risk the papier mache I normally use for scenery and used expanded polystyrene (which I loathe) instead.

Would I build another cellar layout?  Yes!  I'm scratching my head over baseboard construction right now!

Edited August 22, 2020 by mike morley

[Keith Addenbrooke]

3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Since you don't want an out & back I'll suggest one. (I'm thinking of making the main Terminus into a converging, like Exmouth, Bournemouth West or Bath Green Park. I'm sure inferior railways such as the western also had such things).

 

Take the one with two termini and make "Terminus B" into a through station/ halt and then take that round to the FY, which is now double ended. No compulsion to operate it as an out & back as the FY represents the far end of both branches, but you've also got the option if you want it.

Thanks, this would have been an idea worth pursuing - but there is a consensus advising against the project, and for good reasons.

[Zomboid]

It's still an interesting problem, even if impractical

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, bgman said:

I would agree with Mike ( The Stationmaster ) in all respects, being a retired Building Control Inspector it became a double edged job on some occasions when finding some projects built by railway modellers in awkward situations.

Damp is an extremely expensive matter to deal with and if unchecked will cause irreparable damage to a property.

 

Placing expensive models in the mix would, with the greatest respect, be foolhardy and even if the walls were to be lined to mask the potential problem being hidden it will always come back to bite you.

 

OSB - Oriented Strand Board made up of resin bonded wood chips, similar to ply and better waterproofing qualities.

 

I hope you find a solution and are able to have the layout you wish for, but please not in a damp basement.

 

G  

Noted, thank you.  

 

You may all have done me more of a favour than it appears - had I been able to progress my previous, portable layout project, the intention would have been to store those baseboards (12mm ply) in the cellar when not in use as well.

While it would not have been a ‘change of use’ for the room, the damp would have been a major threat: I would have been storing the boards vertically - so one end would be one the floor, and I would only have been checking on them periodically, so could easily fail to see any deterioration (particularly on the boards at the back).  The risk to the fabric of the layout would have been higher.

 

My micro-layout may also have been saved too - although the Sundeala (fibre) boards it uses hadn’t shown any signs of damp when stored in the cellar before I used them, they were stored higher up (above external ground level), on the other side of the room (by an internal wall) and, as it happens, right by the dehumidifier.  I think I’ll revise my suggestion to put them downstairs!

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, mike morley said:

I've started but not finished two layouts located in a cellar that, despite having far, far more money thrown at it than I could either afford or justify, remains damp.  Like you, I was always aware of the possible problems the damp could cause and took steps to prevent them becoming an issue, but still managed to get caught out a few times.

For instance, having once come worryingly close to dripping molten solder in my eye when working on the underside of a baseboard, I now make sure even permanent layouts can be dismantled into sections that can be taken to somewhere better suited to being worked upon.  One thing I discovered was that a baseboard capable of being manhandled up or down a typical steep, narrow cellar staircase is considerably smaller than you might think.  The other problem became apparent when I came to dismantle the boards and discovered the 6mm ply had swollen enough to exert a vice-like grip on the 6mm coachbolts holding them together!  I ended up having to drive them out with a hammer and doubt if even that drastic measure would have been enough, had the end-frames been timber.

Another problem was the lack of headroom.  I can only stand up straight between the joists of the living room floor above, which means the layout lighting is somewhat trickier to arrange than you might expect.  My two layouts were both built before LED's became popular and the spotlights I used often resulted in frazzled ears.  After half an hour or so they made the whole cellar quite hot and the consequent extremes of temperature caused as many problems as they do in lofts and attics.

One problem I did anticipate that, to my relief, didnt happen was rusty wheel rims.  I much prefer using card for buildings but wasnt brave enough to risk it so made them all from plastic sheet.  Similarly, I thought it best not to risk the papier mache I normally use for scenery and used expanded polystyrene (which I loathe) instead.

Would I build another cellar layout?  Yes!  I'm scratching my head over baseboard construction right now!

Thank you for this - all helpful advice.

 

In my case, I do have a small outbuilding I can use as an informal workshop, which I have used for baseboards an for gluing the cork underlay and ballasting my micro-layout, but it has no heating or internal access so is only really useable on dry, warm days.  Fortunately, the stairs up from our cellar come up at the back door, so it is a straight line from the cellar room to the outside, and I can move a 4’ x 2’ ply board around (the board for my portable layout we’re fitted with plenty of handles!).  As noted in my previous thread, that size is really at the upper limit for moving around, and would not have gone down the stairs to our previous cellar - CJF recommended boards closer to 3’ for example.

 

Good luck with your new layout - without the benefit of prior experience, and with valid questions in my case over regulatory compliance, I’m going to think again.  Keith.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just in case someone else with a cellar is reading this, some are not that damp and can be made habitable without too much difficulty. But it does sound as though Keith's is a difficult one. And because he does not have security of tenure, it does not make sense to spend money on it. I would be worried even about the other stuff stored there. The cellar was probably only meant for storing coal.

 

Starting point in converting any cellar is a dampproof membrane for the floor (check if you are in a Radon area). But making the floor dry will mean that the damp is going to head for the walls. No good putting any battens against the wall. It needs to be drylined with a studwork wall away from the masonry. Put some vents in the plasterboard/OSB partition so that there is airflow between the partition and the masonry.

 

I sympathise with Keith not knowing what OSB is. Three letter acronyms have taken over the world. To a "man of the cloth", OSB is the Order of  Saint Benedict (Benedictine monks).

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Summary...

 

My thanks to all who’ve responded to my proposal this morning.  As always - even if unexpectedly - I’ve learned a lot through RMweb, and been reminded of things I’d already forgotten about buildings too! (See my corrected reply to @The Stationmaster).

 

I’m grateful to @Joseph_Pestell for clarifying that the problems with my situation don’t automatically rule out all cellar layouts.

 

On behalf of Mrs. A and myself, we’re also grateful for the general advice on looking after all the stuff we have to keep in the cellar (We had sufficient confidence in RMweb members before I posted the thread to expect it would help, and I’ve not been disappointed, thank you).  We did already know that a few things we’d not been able to unpack from the cardboard packing boxes we moved in with two years ago were starting to suffer, and I’ve spent some of my holiday finishing the job of transferring it all to plastic crates - I wasn’t just down there measuring up for a potential layout, honest!  (RUB products are not just for micro-layouts and rolling stock, apparently ).

_________________________
 

While I like the idea @Zomboid had mentioned I’m going to take the advice, call off play for the day and look again at my options.  For what it’s worth, my suggestion for a compact terminus to use for that idea in this type of space would be to look at @Harlequin’s Seironim (which, for those familiar with the design, could perhaps be said to echo Bath Green Park anyway with a centre road - albeit one instead of two?).

_________________________
 

My search for a layout solution continues: the garage isn’t suitable (at the end of the garden, unlined and without power), the outbuilding is too small (and unheated), and there are no spare rooms - we have a wonderful large family who are very supportive of my interest,  but aren’t active modellers.  I traded up from N Gauge 30 years ago and lack the manual dexterity or finesse (or eyesight) to trade back again - my aim is to use the OO Gauge stuff I have.

 

I’d hoped to make good progress on a layout by the end of the summer, as it is a relaxing hobby, but I enjoy planning as well, plus I have a micro-layout to finish, my Station kit to complete, a US Diorama to re-start and a collection of track plan ideas to re-read.
 

Until next time....

Edited August 22, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I sympathise with Keith not knowing what OSB is. Three letter acronyms have taken over the world. To a "man of the cloth", OSB is the Order of  Saint Benedict (Benedictine monks).

 

I would have thought a habited Benedictine was quite absorbent and if rotated frequently to a drier site they could perhaps control damp quite effectively. As a side effect, the singing of the offices drifting up from the cellar might be quite relaxing.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

57 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

I would have thought a habited Benedictine was quite absorbent and if rotated frequently to a drier site they could perhaps control damp quite effectively. As a side effect, the singing of the offices drifting up from the cellar might be quite relaxing.

You’ve not heard my singing...

[DCB]

Basement / Cellar layouts are just about the norm in the USA,  Damp is a problem. Can be a problem,  We run Computer PSU cooling fans at floor level  24/7 to ventilate an old chapel of which I am one of the managing trustees, We also run a dehumidifier 24/7 but it is arranged to discharge the water automatically not require emptying.   I reckon using outdoor modelling/ US  techniques  a cellar layout should be eminently do able.  Fire escape is a bit of a  worry  as you could be working for an extended period down there, long enough for a fire to take hold.

Or an unattended soldering iron could set the place on fire but on the plus side the temperature variations should be minimal compared to lofts and sheds, its less damp than the garden and its available.  I would give it a go. maybe US L girder style, lots of seasoned second hand lumber, skips or old pallets not much ply or wooden sheets, plastic buildings.

A hinged lifting section would make a big difference to the track layout options. Maybe it would work better as a US prototype...

[Keith Addenbrooke]

46 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

Basement / Cellar layouts are just about the norm in the USA,  Damp is a problem. Can be a problem,  We run Computer PSU cooling fans at floor level  24/7 to ventilate an old chapel of which I am one of the managing trustees, We also run a dehumidifier 24/7 but it is arranged to discharge the water automatically not require emptying.   I reckon using outdoor modelling/ US  techniques  a cellar layout should be eminently do able.  Fire escape is a bit of a  worry  as you could be working for an extended period down there, long enough for a fire to take hold.

Or an unattended soldering iron could set the place on fire but on the plus side the temperature variations should be minimal compared to lofts and sheds, its less damp than the garden and its available.  I would give it a go. maybe US L girder style, lots of seasoned second hand lumber, skips or old pallets not much ply or wooden sheets, plastic buildings.

A hinged lifting section would make a big difference to the track layout options. Maybe it would work better as a US prototype...

Thanks David - we turn our dehumidifier off overnight so it isn’t on all the time, because of the fire risk if it overheated.  The window can’t be used as a fire escape as there is a security grid on the outside at ground level.  I’m going to look at other options, but you’re right about the US - I intentionally didn’t get out my Kalmbach collection of plan books for this project as I could easily have got carried away!  Keith.

 

[mike morley]

After a minor flood a handful of years ago I bought a dehumidifier to speed the drying of the cellar.  Like Keith, I was wary of running it continuously so set it up to run eight hours on, four hours off.  It was only in use for a couple of months but despite that still added about £100 to that quarter's electric bill.  Not something you'd want to have to rely on unless you have deep pockets!

[AndyB]

Keith. 

I think you're missing a trick.  

Why not put the layout at the back of the church!