Using JMRI - NCE Powercab -v- Sprog 3

[john new]

Still somewhat of a DCC newbie but beginning to get to grips with where I need to go next.

 

I currently have an NCE PowerCab system with its' facia panel mounted and wired onto a very small shunting plank layout. Having seen videos on the JMRI system it looks a much more sensible and intuitive route for fine tuning chips etc. than using the NCE handset.

 

The computer and USB cables are already owned, as are a phone or tablet for WiThrottle use later if needed, and I have plenty of spare USB to computer cables already. As I see it I have two options here:-

 

Option 1 - just add the NCE USB option to the existing layout, if yes what extra cable is needed to link the USB board to the PowerCab facia and does the USB board itself need a 2nd power source? [Programming on the main so to speak].

 

Option 2  - either a Sprog  or an NCE USB system on a new board to give an independent programming track linked to my PC or Laptop with JMRI DecoderPro installed (Possibly a track circle for running in).

 

Looking at both the SPROG 2 and the 3 it looks like all you need at minimum as hardware is the device and power unit; however, with a SPROG driving a layout is some form of overload protector also needed or is that in the device itself? For future proofing I guess for the little extra initial cost the SPROG3 is a better buy than the 2.

 

If going down the NCE USB board option instead fitted on to a 2nd board I will presumably need a new fascia Panel (and wallwart feed for that) but is a further additional power feed also needed for the USB board and (as for option 1) what cable is needed for linking the fascia panel to the USB board? Presumably something like the NCE CP6 I already have on the layout board is also needed for overload protection. None of the adverts seem to make it clear exactly what is included in the box or needed as an extra for the NCE USB option to be complete.

 

Price for the two options is similar as I already have the NCE throttle/hand set. The SPOG 3 seems to just be edging it to me currently on price and simplicity - which route do people recommend.

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by john new
Typos corrected

[woodenhead]

My first dipping the toe in exercise with DCC was Sprog 3 and JMRI Decoder pro - all I had to do was connect the track wires to the Sprog 3 and the Sprog to my laptop via USB.

 

Despite working in IT, I find DCC baffling for some reason but I managed to program a loco and run it in minutes.  

 

The downside is that to play with the railway I do need to have my laptop on and I've had some problems keeping my ipad or android phone functioning on the wifi extender mode - using the laptop is not ideal as it's at 90 degrees to the railway but that's not a fault of the program or the Sprog.

 

£80 for a Sprog over £200 for the Powercab, that difference paid for a pile of Rails chips.

 

I am sure with more learning and investigations I can sort out my issues with the ipad and also improve the interface but having 28 function sound decoders the JMRI interface sounds easier to operate than the same with a Powercab

[Nigelcliffe]

47 minutes ago, john new said:

Still somewhat of a DCC newbie but beginning to get to grips with where I need to go next.

 

I currently have an NCE PowerCab system with its' facia panel mounted and wired onto a very small shunting plank layout. Having seen videos on the JMRI system it looks a much more sensible and intuitive route for fine tuning chips etc. than using the NCE handset.

 

The computer and USB cables are already owned, as are a phone or tablet for WiThrottle use later if needed, and I have plenty of spare USB to computer cables already. As I see it I have two options here:-

 

Option 1 - just add the NCE USB option to the existing layout, if yes what extra cable is needed to link the USB board to the PowerCab facia and does the USB board itself need a 2nd power source? [Programming on the main so to speak].

 

Option 2  - either a Sprog  or an NCE USB system on a new board to give an independent programming track linked to my PC or Laptop with JMRI DecoderPro installed (Possibly a track circle for running in).

 

Looking at both the SPROG 2 and the 3 it looks like all you need at minimum as hardware is the device and power unit; however, with a SPROG driving a layout is some form of overload protector also needed or is that in the device itself? For future proofing I guess for the little extra initial cost the SPROG3 is a better buy than the 2.

 

If going down the NCE USB board option instead fitted on to a 2nd board I will presumably need a new fascia Panel (and wallwart feed for that) but is a further additional power feed also needed for the USB board and (as for option 1) what cable is needed for linking the fascia panel to the USB board? Presumably something like the NCE CP6 I already have on the layout board is also needed for overload protection. None of the adverts seem to make it clear exactly what is included in the box or needed as an extra for the NCE USB option to be complete.

 

Price for the two options is similar as I already have the NCE throttle/hand set. The SPOG 3 seems to just be edging it to me currently on price and simplicity - which route do people recommend.

 

 

Sprog is self-contained, so has its power supply, and protection of itself against short circuits.   Being self-contained is strength and weakness.

 

The NCE option is fairly simple.  The USB device draws its (very little) power from the USB cable and the NCE cab-bus (facia panels).  All the USB device is doing is sending a few data signals from computer to NCE system, ie. very low power.   

It takes up one of the throttle "slots" on the NCE system, but you should still be able to have a few more devices on even a PowerCab. (Consult PowerCab manual for how to set the throttle address on devices such as the Cab06).  

You don't need power supplies for the secondary NCE facia panels.  Only the "master" panel which powers the "master" PowerCab needs the power supply (because that power supply is going into the PowerCab, then back out to the entire layout as track power.  All subsequent devices only need a tiny bit of power to move a few data packets around).  

If going down the NCE route, I strongly recommend adding the NCE Auto-Switch for programming track to your system (get one regardless of the Sprog/NCE decision, the device works with both, and its cheap).  Then you have both an isolated programming track, and a layout.  The auto-switch ensures that you can't accidentally program everything on the layout because it stops service mode (aka programming track) instructions going to the layout.   

 

Personally I think its a close call - the NCE adaptor means you can drive your layout from computer as well as the NCE handsets.  OK, may not want to do it much, but it means you can setup features such as speed curves quicker than swapping over to Sprog, doing the adjustments, then back to NCE system.  
The Sprog is perhaps the better option if you have a test-bench away from the layout, or if you plan to move over to using the Sprog as layout control. 

 

 

The software is identical in both cases. 

 

 

I have two Sprogs, had them for many years, and don't own an NCE system.  But (covid forbidding) do work on a large layout with a NCE PowerPro system, and a spare PowerCab for the maintenance desk. 

 

 

- Nigel

[john new]

1 hour ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

--- cut
The Sprog is perhaps the better option if you have a test-bench away from the layout, or if you plan to move over to using the Sprog as layout control. 

 

-- cut

Thanks for the helpful reply @Nigelcliffe I have tried during lockdown having my B&D Workmate up in the spare bedroom for a workbench; the experiment hasn't been ideal as they are not designed for sitting at and the bedroom is really too small for it therefore it is in the way of wardrobe access etc.

 

Therefore, yes, part of the thinking for option 2 in my OP (The separated option) is very limited domestic space. A 2nd programming board can be put up anywhere for a short time downstairs on our folding picnic table, on my office desk etc. I was also thinking of the option of garden test running if the electrickery gubbins is portable.

 

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by john new

[Nigelcliffe]

43 minutes ago, john new said:

Thanks for the helpful reply @Nigelcliffe I have tried during lockdown having my B&D Workmate up in the spare bedroom for a workbench; the experiment hasn't been ideal as they are not designed for sitting at and the bedroom is really too small for it therefore it is in the way of wardrobe access etc.

 

 

Tip for using Workmate's as tables - bit of offcut board (say 15mm melamine coated chip) with a 20mm x 40mm batton screwed/nailed to the middle underneath.   Board is bigger than workmate top.  Clamp the batton in Workmate, and instant table.  

 

But can't help with lack of access to wardrobes, other than "need bigger house".... 

 

- Nigel

[john new]

Just now, Nigelcliffe said:

 

Tip for using Workmate's as tables - bit of offcut board (say 15mm melamine coated chip) with a 20mm x 40mm batton screwed/nailed to the middle underneath.   Board is bigger than workmate top.  Clamp the batton in Workmate, and instant table.  

 

But can't help with lack of access to wardrobes, other than "need bigger house".... 

 

- Nigel

Done years ago, agree it works. My option was 2 x 1 strip bolted through a plywood off cut and that grips in the workmate. Small vice permanently mounted to that. 

 

Bigger house would help, concur. We live 300 miles away from the children (Now adults with their own kids) so have to have all three bedrooms with beds in for family visits (when they are again allowed). The issue with the room I mentioned is having a double bed in what is really a single room, the other single has bunk beds.

 

One of these days we will get the garage converted to have an insulated roof and a few other issues with it fixed. It was intended to be the railway room/workshop when we moved in (1986) but that idea had to be abandoned due to damp and white mould.

[Pete the Elaner]

I find JMRI a lot easier than the NCE handset for programming.

We have a Powercab USB adaptor at the club so I can't check it but, from memory, it connects to the Powercab's panel with the curly lead from your Powercab which you will not be using. It sounds like you already have the USB side of things in hand.

 

I only use the programming track when I install a new decoder. After I read in the CVs, they are stored in JMRI's roster files (so I make sure these are backed up).

With JMRI, you update the roster files then write the changes to the decoder. Now I know what values I am changing, I should never need to read them again so it is easier to program decoders on the main rather than move them to the programming track.

Some like to record their important CVs in a spreadsheet. This is a lot more effort than using JMRI to record them.

[dasatcopthorne]

I have the NCE USB set up.

 

Yes, the USB board is powered from the UTP panel. It plugs into the right hand socket and is forced to be Cab #3. The USB board settings are crucial. No jumpers set and Baud rate 9600.

 

Much easier to program using JMRI.

 

Dave

[john new]

As an update, following the tips in this thread, I ordered a SPROG 3 which arrived this morning. Will try and get it setup over the weekend.

[john new]

On 01/04/2021 at 17:50, john new said:

As an update, following the tips in this thread, I ordered a SPROG 3 which arrived this morning. Will try and get it setup over the weekend.

All connected and working, first loco chip read as a test. Now for the complicated bits!

[woodenhead]

I really need to put time aside, get out of my anxiety and wire up my cobalts - then I can put PanelPro & Sprog to the test.

[Damo666]

Researching this now, and trying to get clarity on how this works. Been looking at Little Wicket Railroad on YouTube, and he's given me confidence to 'borrow' my daughter’s Arduino and try out DCC++.

 

I already have an NCE PowerCab, and thought these systems would be in addition, but from what I can see, my NCE PowerCab wouldn't be necessary.

 

Am I correct in saying there are the following ways to control a DCC system.

1. NCE PowerCab (or throttle by many other manu's)

2. JMRI software on a computer and a Sprog 3. Don't need a separate throttle like my NCE PowerCab.

3. JMRI software with an NCE USB Adaptor. Then I can use a computer to programme my decoders and also run the locos. But then, what's the purpose of the NCE Throttle?

4. JMRI software on a computer and DCC++ on an Arduino connected via USB cable. Again, the computer controls the locos on the track and I don't need the throttle.

 

My understanding may be way out, as I'm still trying to get my head around the various systems, so would appreciate any corrections.

 

Is it possible to have the JMRI and Sprog controlling the layout and the NCE PowerCab also connected? Do they recongise the instructions by the other and compliment each other, or does this cause the layout to trip over itself?

 

@woodenhead I understand your anxiety. I too leave off starting something new because I fear it's a long learning-curve and I don't have the time at the moment, so will leave it until I have the time to spare, or until I feel I know everything (which is why I've never got around to selling anything on eBay, even thought I want to; the fear that it's too complicated to avoid getting scammed, will under price it, etc). Did you get around to wiring your cobalts up?

 

@john new Have you moved forward with this, any advice?

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, Damo666 said:

Researching this now, and trying to get clarity on how this works. Been looking at Little Wicket Railroad on YouTube, and he's given me confidence to 'borrow' my daughter’s Arduino and try out DCC++.

 

I already have an NCE PowerCab, and thought these systems would be in addition, but from what I can see, my NCE PowerCab wouldn't be necessary.

 

Am I correct in saying there are the following ways to control a DCC system.

1. NCE PowerCab (or throttle by many other manu's)

2. JMRI software on a computer and a Sprog 3. Don't need a separate throttle like my NCE PowerCab.

3. JMRI software with an NCE USB Adaptor. Then I can use a computer to programme my decoders and also run the locos. But then, what's the purpose of the NCE Throttle?

4. JMRI software on a computer and DCC++ on an Arduino connected via USB cable. Again, the computer controls the locos on the track and I don't need the throttle.

 

My understanding may be way out, as I'm still trying to get my head around the various systems, so would appreciate any corrections.

 

Is it possible to have the JMRI and Sprog controlling the layout and the NCE PowerCab also connected? Do they recongise the instructions by the other and compliment each other, or does this cause the layout to trip over itself?

 

 

Slight terminology issue with some things you're saying and it is probably sensible to get the terminology correct before proceeding. 

 

Connected to the track is a Booster, and controlling that booster is a Command Station.    A Throttle is something which controls loco speed/direction/functions (and other controls) by giving instructions to a Command Station.  

 

PowerCab is a combined Throttle, Command Station and Booster in one package.   Optional extra maker's USB connection to computer.   Optionally can add more NCE throttles to system.  

 

Sprog is a combined Command Station and Booster (no throttle).   System includes USB connection to computer. 

 

DCC++EX, usual build of Arduino and Motor Shield, is a combined Command Station and Booster (no throttle).  System includes USB connection to computer.   Optionally, can offer WiThrottle server through its own Arduino firmware if suitable components are used (so don't need computer running JMRI for the WiFi throttle server element, though there may be other JMRI features which could be useful. ).   

 

 

JMRI is software which can interface to many DCC command stations (and other things), and offers Software Throttles, either on-screen directly, or via the WiThrottle server to smartphones running suitable apps, or to suitable WiFi based Hardware Throttles (such as those from TCS).   Broadly speaking, the JMRI capabilities through any of the above hardware is similar, though there are a lot of detailed differences.  

 

 

Answering question 3)  PowerCab + NCE USB adaptor + JMRI.   The PowerCab throttle is needed as it contains the Command Station and Booster (remove the PowerCab and the setup does nothing).   PowerCab can optionally be used to drive trains as well as those driven from inside JMRI, at the same time.   

 

 

You can't connect two command stations to the same track (via their boosters).     So, you cannot connect a Sprog and PowerCab to the same track at the same time.  ( Or any other combination ).    At best nothing works, at worst you destroy one or both systems.     
For more advanced users, JMRI can interface to multiple systems at the same time, so it is possible to have one system driving trains on one "layout" and another system for something else (perhaps the signals, or an isolated test track, or even a different "layout" which shares the same baseboards but not any track connection).   

 

 

- Nigel

[Simon G]

In my opinion, the main thing to work out is exactly how you want to operate your DCC layout.  I have a Powercab system with the USB adapter and it gives me the choice of using either JMRI on the computer or the NCE throttle.  They work very differently.  The advantage of JMRI is that you will have a roster on the computer with all your DCC locos, making it very easy to select and then operate them.  If you have DCC Sound locos, using JMRI can be easier to select all the function “buttons” than on the NCE.

 

I would avoid having a Sprog and NCE connected to the same system.  Without having tried it, it sounds like a recipe for disaster!

[woodenhead]

I keep my Sprog for programming (not that I do much) and the NCE PowerCab for running.

 

The Sprog has a short length of track connected to it for programming, I can also program with the PowerCab but I restrict that to just changing addresses or adding points.

[john new]

On 02/04/2021 at 22:36, john new said:

All connected and working, first loco chip read as a test. Now for the complicated bits!

Informative recent answers, thank you. Personally I have had very little time for doing anything much on this since my 2021 post as too many non-modelling things have got in the way. When I have dome modelling it has mostly been wagon weathering.

[Damo666]

6 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

Slight terminology issue with some things you're saying and it is probably sensible to get the terminology correct before proceeding. 

 

Connected to the track is a Booster, and controlling that booster is a Command Station.    A Throttle is something which controls loco speed/direction/functions (and other controls) by giving instructions to a Command Station.  

 

PowerCab is a combined Throttle, Command Station and Booster in one package.   Optional extra maker's USB connection to computer.   Optionally can add more NCE throttles to system.  

 

Sprog is a combined Command Station and Booster (no throttle).   System includes USB connection to computer. 

 

DCC++EX, usual build of Arduino and Motor Shield, is a combined Command Station and Booster (no throttle).  System includes USB connection to computer.   Optionally, can offer WiThrottle server through its own Arduino firmware if suitable components are used (so don't need computer running JMRI for the WiFi throttle server element, though there may be other JMRI features which could be useful. ).   

 

 

JMRI is software which can interface to many DCC command stations (and other things), and offers Software Throttles, either on-screen directly, or via the WiThrottle server to smartphones running suitable apps, or to suitable WiFi based Hardware Throttles (such as those from TCS).   Broadly speaking, the JMRI capabilities through any of the above hardware is similar, though there are a lot of detailed differences.  

 

 

Answering question 3)  PowerCab + NCE USB adaptor + JMRI.   The PowerCab throttle is needed as it contains the Command Station and Booster (remove the PowerCab and the setup does nothing).   PowerCab can optionally be used to drive trains as well as those driven from inside JMRI, at the same time.   

 

 

You can't connect two command stations to the same track (via their boosters).     So, you cannot connect a Sprog and PowerCab to the same track at the same time.  ( Or any other combination ).    At best nothing works, at worst you destroy one or both systems.     
For more advanced users, JMRI can interface to multiple systems at the same time, so it is possible to have one system driving trains on one "layout" and another system for something else (perhaps the signals, or an isolated test track, or even a different "layout" which shares the same baseboards but not any track connection).  

 

- Nigel

 

Thank you Nigel for this. It's explained a lot to me, but I think I'll need to read it a couple of more times for it all to fall into place.

 

You have touched on DCC++EX. I've just come across this protocol after pretty much convincing myself that the original DCC++ was where i needed to start looking.

 

6 hours ago, Simon G said:

In my opinion, the main thing to work out is exactly how you want to operate your DCC layout.  I have a Powercab system with the USB adapter and it gives me the choice of using either JMRI on the computer or the NCE throttle.  They work very differently.  The advantage of JMRI is that you will have a roster on the computer with all your DCC locos, making it very easy to select and then operate them.  If you have DCC Sound locos, using JMRI can be easier to select all the function “buttons” than on the NCE.

 

I would avoid having a Sprog and NCE connected to the same system.  Without having tried it, it sounds like a recipe for disaster!

 

This is exactly what I need to do. I generally have little spare time, so every time I get to play with my layout I have to keep referencing the NCE manual to do anything apart from speed and change direction.  The idea of a simple visual display is appealing.

Also, JMRI seems like an easy way to change CVs, the method via the NCE PowerCab is too complicated for an occasional need.

 

I've programmed a lot of my points with IPDigital Cobalt motors, but again, trying to run a loco and then remember which point to throw on the NCE .... well it just takes me too much time. I'm sure if I had more time it would be like driving a car, second nature. It's my plan to make a mimic-panel once I finalise my layout, but this is still in flux.

 

I think I'm now narrowing my options to either:

1. NCE with the USB Adaptor and JMRI. In this set-up, can I assume that I can use the PowerCab and the JMRI software throttle simultaneously? [EDIT: Having re-read Nigel's reply I see that this is correct.]

2. DCC++ / DCC++EX on an Arduino with shield and JMRI, but then my NCE throttle would be redundant.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Damo666