Stranraer

[bahram]

I passed Cairn Ryan today and noticed that they are building a new terminal for Stena Line and it is to be completed by 2011 with the old terminal at Stranraer closing, does anybody know anything what is to happen to the railway that goes to this terminal, obviously it will serve nothing after 2011?

[Jamie]

I'm led to believe D&G council wish to build a new platform on a truncated Harbour branch thus bringing the station closer to the town centre.

 

SAYLSA on the other hand wish to retain the existing station for historical reasons and so that their plans of promoting the line as a tourist route aren't handicapped by a 4-car sprinter-sized platform with no loop. There have been local press reports of NR wishing to downgrade the RA of the line, saving maintenance cost but again impairing their plans.

 

I don't know. Stuck out on the pier with a fairly poor service frequency, no direct boat traffic, and a trek from the town does seem a daft idea. I can't even recall if there's a direct train service anywhere further than Kilmarnock nowadays, which renders it less attractive still to travellers.

 

Sorry to paint a bleak picture of probably my favourite line, but it's how I see it.

[bahram]

I'm led to believe D&G council wish to build a new platform on a truncated Harbour branch thus bringing the station closer to the town centre.

 

SAYLSA on the other hand wish to retain the existing station for historical reasons and so that their plans of promoting the line as a tourist route aren't handicapped by a 4-car sprinter-sized platform with no loop. There have been local press reports of NR wishing to downgrade the RA of the line, saving maintenance cost but again impairing their plans.

 

I don't know. Stuck out on the pier with a fairly poor service frequency, no direct boat traffic, and a trek from the town does seem a daft idea. I can't even recall if there's a direct train service anywhere further than Kilmarnock nowadays, which renders it less attractive still to travellers.

 

Sorry to paint a bleak picture of probably my favourite line, but it's how I see it.

Thank you for your reply. I remember reading that their used to be a line to the old ship breaker's pier. I suppose that it would not be economical to reinstate that. Again it would make sense to have container trains travelling to the terminal rather than lorries trooping up and down on the approach roads that are not suitable for them. Ah well I suppose that makes too much sense!

[Guest stuartp]

Thank you for your reply. I remember reading that their used to be a line to the old ship breaker's pier. I suppose that it would not be economical to reinstate that. Again it would make sense to have container trains travelling to the terminal rather than lorries trooping up and down on the approach roads that are not suitable for them. Ah well I suppose that makes too much sense!

 

It might have been an option a couple of years ago, I think there's one road bridge to replace but no other major works. Conversely, there's a lot of roadworks going on to the east of Glenluce at the moment, they've bulldozed a trench which looks to be wide enough for a dual-carriageway across Dergoals Moss and obliterated a couple of miles of the old PP&W trackbed. There have been other improvements along the A75 as well.

 

 

Edit - found it, £6.5m to build less than 2 miles of dual carriageway straight through an SSSI:

[Jamie]

It might have been an option a couple of years ago, I think there's one road bridge to replace but no other major works.

I got the impression that there wasn't much difference in elevation between the modern A77 and the Cairnryan line formation - but that's only hazy recollection and ill-informed observation from me (again).

 

Conversely, there's a lot of roadworks going on to the east of Glenluce at the moment, they've bulldozed a trench which looks to be wide enough for a dual-carriageway across Dergoals Moss and obliterated a couple of miles of the old PP&W trackbed. There have been other improvements along the A75 as well.

 

Aye, the Port Road is gone, and probably always was once the rails were lifted. But if there was a viable case traffic could go over Chirmorie, tunnels and other civils permitting.

In any case it's almost entirely conventional artics that head up the A77, I don't see many container trucks on my travels.

 

I really do wish the SAYLSA guys the best of luck. While it's no WHL, tourist development of the route could breathe life into the line and the area as a whole - let's face it, what else is there at Mallaig than the Jacobite?

 

Your link there Stuart, I daren't read the article. More for the SSSI aspect than aught else.

[pH]

I got the impression that there wasn't much difference in elevation between the modern A77 and the Cairnryan line formation - but that's only hazy recollection and ill-informed observation from me (again).

 

Aye, the Port Road is gone, and probably always was once the rails were lifted. But if there was a viable case traffic could go over Chirmorie, tunnels and other civils permitting.

In any case it's almost entirely conventional artics that head up the A77, I don't see many container trucks on my travels.

Jamie, the missing bridge is over the A75 here, not the A77.

 

With hindsight, it seems as if the PP&W might have been a better choice for retention than the Glasgow line, with increased commercial traffic to Europe (east-west). I'm sorry to say it, but I think a move of ferry traffic to Cairnryan might be the end of the line beyond Girvan or even Dalyrymple Junction. Again, in 45 more years with increases in fuel costs, that might turn out to be another wrong move, but I don't think NR can afford to bet that far ahead.

 

From a road safety perspective only, ignoring any implications for the railway, I'm glad they're doing something to improve the A75. I drove it last year in a rainstorm and large parts of it were downright scary!

[Guest Max Stafford]

Agreed Paul, it's a shocking road in that respect. I wonder what the comparative cost would be between duelling the whole route from the border to Stranraer, compared with a railway from Dumfries, built for the primary purpose of carrying freight, perhaps in the way Swiss and Austrian routes do, by way of piggy back trains a.nd container flats. As this would be a 'clean sheet' project, continental gauge standards could be applied.

I suspect that the standard UK practice of finding 100 good reasons NOT to do it would prevail, but it would seem a very suitable solution and given the general standard of driving shown by the A75s users it would quite possibly save a lot of lives too.

 

Dave.

['CHARD]

 

Your link there Stuart, I daren't read the article. More for the SSSI aspect than aught else.

 

Jamie, that was a wise decision. I dared, but I didn't win.

 

No mention of the SSSSSSI, but this banal quote was sufficient to give me rage:

 

 

"The twelve month long contract will see a new eastbound carriageway constructed on the site of a disused railway line, with the existing A75 set to become the new westbound route, giving both east and westbound dedicated safer overtaking opportunities."

On the site of a disused railway line? 'Site'??? NO, that is a route, connecting people and places, not a site. Nonsense.

 

As for that last bit of uber-jargon, I expect the sign before the dual carriageway will read: 'Dual Dedicated Safer Overtaking Opportunity ahead,' which will presumably please the Minister's pals at Larger Road Signs plc.

 

Amateurs.

[Jamie]

Did the Cairnryan military railway not actually drop down to dock side level, or anywhere else thereabouts? Certainly one part of what I believed to be the formation that I saw (given away IIRC by an iron plate girder bridge) was West of the A77, with no surviving crossing point. Must re-read the relevant part of Little Railways... Your A75 crossing would be another instance.

 

And then again, you're instantly pandering to the foot traffic for the ferries to the detriment of the locals - further from Stranraer town centre than ever.

 

It depends. Another option that has been reported in the font of all knowledge that is the Carrick Gazette was that passengers could be taken by bus to Girvan. Now that's daft. They might as well take the bus on to Glasgow, than change to a train to get as far as Ayr, only to change again.

 

A new bridge at Girvan station suggests NR have no short-term plans for closure, and I'm unsure how it would sit politically at Holyrood either. I know there's precedence in upgrades and repaints before closure, but I don't see a commercially minded NR being quite the '70s BR.

 

 

Potential exists for local-sourced traffic (as opposed to ferry traffic): reasonably heavily loaded circa 1800 weekday Southbound departures from Ayr showed me this, but daft service timings to suit the boats alone, yet going nowhere useful other than Ayr (directly) are no help to that aspect of the line's case at all.

[Gwiwer]

What sort of use is made of the passenger service currently?

 

I haven't been that way since the final days of the London - Stranraer sleeper (latterly only a short portion off a Glasgow train) but even then the day train up to Glasgow was very lightly used until it reached Girvan.

 

The current service is mostly to Glasgow via Kilmarnock rather than the more traditional route via Dalry and with one or two trains to Carlisle and Newcastle instead. Stranraer has always been somewhat isolated; in the days of the Port Road it was a long slog from Carlisle while it still is a fair haul off the platform end at Girvan up to Pinmore and onto Chirmorie.

 

I suspect that closure would be politically very unacceptable and with the Edinburgh administration more obviously supportive of rail transport than Westminster I would be surprised to see any such proposal brought.

 

As to the future of Stranraer Harbour station we may have to await developments. A 4-car "Stranraer Town" platform with no run round might be less than ideal but if there were no freight or other reason to keep the harbour station this could become a "solution". A solution to what would be a valid question.

[Jamie]

The current service is mostly to Glasgow via Kilmarnock rather than the more traditional route via Dalry and with one or two trains to Carlisle and Newcastle instead. Stranraer has always been somewhat isolated; in the days of the Port Road it was a long slog from Carlisle while it still is a fair haul off the platform end at Girvan up to Pinmore and onto Chirmorie.

 

Stranraer-Carlisle and -Newcastle trains ceased with the introduction of the increased Kilmarnock-Glasgow services. Believe Glasgow-Dumfries-Carlisle(-Newcastle) still runs though. Wonder if that means the end of splitting and combining services at Killie, now I think of it.

 

The last Stranraer-Carlisle I believe had a headboard, possibly "the Northern Irishman" tacked on the front of the 156 to commemorate the event.

 

 

I understand the main driver for any change is the Council, who wish to redevelop the harbourside once the boats cease to use it. Certainly any improvements are unlikely to be commercially driven by NR/Scotrail.

[Guest stuartp]

The bridge I was referring to is indeed the A75 bridge, the line then drops down to shore level and follows the A77 up the loch side.

 

There was a rather nice PPR/G&SWR occupation bridge on the Dergoals Moss bit. We spent our honeymoon in Galloway, the current Mrs P was most impressed when her husband of 3 days slewed the car off the A75 and abandoned her at the roadside before leaping off into the undergrowth with tape measure and notepad to record it. I'm glad I did now.

[Gwiwer]

Stranraer-Carlisle and -Newcastle trains ceased with the introduction of the increased Kilmarnock-Glasgow services. Believe Glasgow-Dumfries-Carlisle(-Newcastle) still runs though.

 

I've just taken a nose into Tables 216 and 218. So trains which run up from Stranraer / Girvan to Kilmarnock no longer run through to Carlisle? Where do they go? Connections with the Glasgow service are non-existant in some cases. Or do they simply waste hours at Kilmarnock before returning whence they came? Strikes me - at a fair distance from the area - as poor stock / crew rostering.

 

There are three Glasgow - Kilmarnock - Carlisle - Newcastle workings both ways each weekday with an additional Dumfries - Newcastle one way only. No through Sunday services.

[Oldfield_Park]

I've just taken a nose into Tables 216 and 218. So trains which run up from Stranraer / Girvan to Kilmarnock no longer run through to Carlisle? Where do they go? Connections with the Glasgow service are non-existant in some cases. Or do they simply waste hours at Kilmarnock before returning whence they came? Strikes me - at a fair distance from the area - as poor stock / crew rostering.

 

Or, if one was to be (justifiably?) cynical , an intentional ruse to provide a poor service. Poor service = no passengers. No passengers = excuse to stop the service and save a few quid.

 

I sincerely hope that this move by those on high isn't a case of road-worship to the detriment of the railway. We clearly learnt nothing from the 60s if this is the case.

[Jamie]

Or, if one was to be (justifiably?) cynical , an intentional ruse to provide a poor service. Poor service = no passengers. No passengers = excuse to stop the service and save a few quid.

 

No, I don't think so, even with my natural pessimism. The timetable was recast to permit a half-hour frequency (up on hourly) from Kilmarnock to Glasgow. I expect this used the same number of units, only cl 156 units from Scotrail's diesel fleet being cleared for the lines. Essentially the diagrams seemed to use the units on Glasgow-Kilmarnock shuttles, Glasgow-Carlisle/Newcastle runs, Glasgow/Kilmarnock-Girvan/Stranraer trips. The longer runs dovetailed into the hourly Glasgow-Kilmarnock service. So changes to that core service had knock-ons to the less frequent longer turns. Times on the Stranraer line were aimed at the ferries, rather than locals wishing to get to Ayr or Glasgow and back.

 

In principle, connections are made at Ayr for electric services to Glasgow, which are notably quicker than via Kilmarnock. Kilmarnock provides connections South theoretically (noting Gwiver's timetable observations). How many folk used rail for Stranraer-Carlisle I do wonder. If I was stepping off the ferry as a foot passenger, I'd be on the first bus to Carlisle, and take the train onwards from there.

 

Gwiver: I think your 'stray' units will either head alone to Glasgow on the shuttle in place of a set going to Carlisle, or strengthen another unit on the trip to Glasgow, but I gave up that commute a couple of years back, prior to the GB&K improvements. Many a night sat at Barrhead, or in the pitch black at Lugton loop, awaiting a late Northbound Carlisle train...

 

Stuart: 26power of the forum has an useful set of bridge photos on fotopic, devorgilla.fotopic.net or something like that. Worth a look, may be the same one.

[Guest stuartp]

Stuart: 26power of the forum has an useful set of bridge photos on fotopic, devorgilla.fotopic.net or something like that. Worth a look.

 

Thanks, that's the one (or rather, was the one). He's got a couple of shots I couldn't because the shrubbery was in the way. Despite the width of the mess they're making in those pics the new road will only be one carriageway, with the existing A75 retained as the other. The original plan was to widen the existing carriageway to 2+1 (Chicken lanes ! Do we never learn ?!) but the existing carriageway was unsuitable for widening without risking the stability of the structure (or words to that effect). In other words it's floating on the bog, which probably explains the state of it.

 

It was an interesting little bridge - G&SWR iron replacement of a PPR timber deck with brick repairs to the stone abutments. The sockets for the timber beams were still visible (beams ? girders ? joists ?), I must get round to drawing it up sometime.

 

(With due apologies to the OP for hijacking his topic, I'll go back to sleep now).

[45156]

This used to be my stamping ground in my early years of railway interest, and I can remember some stirring sights up around Chirmorie with the Stranraer drivers making the best of a poorly maintained Black 5 and having to thrash it to run to time - and if there was a problem running uphill, then they would make up for it downhill - Driver McCann being one of the best exponents of this technique (or at least the best known - there were others whose exploits were less public).

 

I would be very sad to see the loss of Ayr-Stranraer, although I also feel that the current political climate in Scotland might work in favour of retention of the line. Stranraer is an odd place, and its main advantage is its relatively sheltered harbour, and proximity to Northern Ireland, so the loss of the ferry traffic is likely to be felt in the town.

 

As I don't presently travel on the Stranraer road, I can't say what the passenger numbers are like from Stranraer to Ayr/Glasgow, but the service is not at all attractive with either a change at Ayr, or a diversion via Kimarnock in prospect for most services. Given the choice, I think that most foot passengers heading for the South would opt for a road journey along the A75 to pick up train services at Carlisle rather than hauling all the way to Kilmarnock, and changing - in terms of distance, it is about 135 miles as against 83 miles by the direct route - and will be costed accordingly! In that respect, the closure of the Port Road was probably one of the less intelligent choices when the network was "rationalised" as it effectively handed all the casual traffic to road transport. But I am also conscious of the fact the the Port Road is dead and buried now, there would be no real prospect of its ever being revived.

 

All I can say is here's hoping....

[Guest Max Stafford]

I do fear for the place if the pier traffic goes completely. From my own observations, a dispiriting proportion of the town seems to have succumbed to the heroin economy...

 

Dave.

[45156]

I do fear for the place if the pier traffic goes completely. From my own observations, a dispiriting proportion of the town seems to have succumbed to the heroin economy...

Dave.

Which, Dave, is actually what I meant by Stranraer is an odd place - it hasn't a great deal of other employment nowadays - but apart from a few pockets, a lot of my old homeland of South West Scotland is very depressing indeed - regrettably. To see once thriving mill towns and mining villages which have all succumbed to the same rot is sad indeed.

Stewart

 

But hey - back to the railway related aspects of this post, methinks

[Guest Max Stafford]

An interesting remnant of the good times was the shed complex, much of which still appeared to be extant at the turn of the century from what I remember. As long as we can recreate aspects of the route in our minds' eye it will live on!

 

Dave.