Vacuum braked BR Std Brake Vans

[giz]

For many years I have been under the impression that, apart from some early production, fitted BR standard brake vans were only piped, not fully fitted. This matches the fact that the vans were issued with TOPS codes CAP or CAR for those with air pipes also. There don't appear to have been any CAVs.

 

However, yesterday, whilst in the shed at the Chasewater Railway I took the oportunity to have a look underneath B953827 and to my surprise the was a vacuum cylinder. Checking Eric Gent's book, 953827 is from lot 3129 of 1958/59 and the van tallies in that it has roller bearings and Oleo buffers.

 

Further reading of Gent's book reveals that there were some departmental vans issued with the code ZTV but no number series are given.

 

Does anyone have any further details of which vans had vacuum cylinders?

[Pennine MC]

Gary, this is one of those things that I pricked my ears up at when it first became known and then lost interest because it was so complicated I think the conclusion reached when it's been discussed before is that at least some of the Lots marked 'v' in the Lot lists in Don Rowland's 'BR wagons: The First Half Million' did have vac cylinders - as you say, some preserved ones have it and there are others that crop up occasionally in photos or on video

[Mark Saunders]

This is one topic that has never been resolved as far as I know?

 

The way I understand it is that the 'fitted' vans were a modification to 'piped' ones.

 

The fitted vans were used in Northumberland on trains of 30 x 24ton hoppers (HUO)with pairs of class 20's to power stations with a van at each end and the leading one as a fitted head.

[40044]

953827 was certainly vacuum fitted when it was numbered DB 953827 and coded ZTV. It was also in regular use upto the late 1990s.

[Mark Forrest]

This is one topic that has never been resolved as far as I know?

 

The way I understand it is that the 'fitted' vans were a modification to 'piped' ones.

 

The fitted vans were used in Northumberland on trains of 30 x 24ton hoppers (HUO)with pairs of class 20's to power stations with a van at each end and the leading one as a fitted head.

Would a single fitted brake van provide sufficient brake force to make much difference as a fitted head? Thought this required something like 20% of the train to be made up of fitted vehicles? I'd always assumed that the brakevan either end of a train was there for operational reasons to speed up turn around.

 

Cheers

[The Stationmaster]

Would a single fitted brake van provide sufficient brake force to make much difference as a fitted head? Thought this required something like 20% of the train to be made up of fitted vehicles? I'd always assumed that the brakevan either end of a train was there for operational reasons to speed up turn around.

 

Cheers

 

I would be very surprised if a single brakevan could add much in the way of brake power (saying it like that avoids the need to check the brakeforce figures ). On the Western the former brakevans used for fitted head in the London Division tended to go round in groups of at least 4, usually more.

 

I would expect that two vans were there simply to speed up any reversals/turn-round - as you suggest.

[giz]

Thanks for the replies. I didn't think there would be an easy answer as even Gent's book which is stuffed with detail on just about everything else regarding BR brake vans has little on this.

 

He does give design codes for ZTVs, these are CA003C, CA005C and D and CA006B, all with brake force 9.

 

Looking at the van, I don't think the fitting of a vacuum cylinder could have been a later modification as it was inset into the concrete infill between the frames. Even those retro-fitted with pipes had these up the outside because of the concrete so I doubt they would have removed the concrete to fit a cylinder.

 

I am wondering why only fully fitted departmental vans made it to TOPS, not those in the revenue fleet. It suggests to me that either a decision was made to transfer all fitted vans or that any fully fitted vans that remained in the revenue fleet had their cylinders disabled and were recoded CAO or CAP.

[Poor Old Bruce]

It suggests to me that either a decision was made to transfer all fitted vans or that any fully fitted vans that remained in the revenue fleet had their cylinders disabled and were recoded CAO or CAP.

You are right ,giz. Lots of vans were built with VB fittings but there was apolicy to remove the automatic brakes some time in the early 1970s IIRC. The logic(?) was that, as guards were by then allowed to ride in the back cabs of the loco on fully fitted trains, there was no longer a need for VB brake vans. There was a fully fitted van at Derby Research which was sent in for maintenance, it came back with the VB equipment removed because that was what the Wagon Shop did and nobody had told them otherwise.

[Guest Phil]

Would a single fitted brake van provide sufficient brake force to make much difference as a fitted head? Thought this required something like 20% of the train to be made up of fitted vehicles? I'd always assumed that the brakevan either end of a train was there for operational reasons to speed up turn around.

 

Cheers

 

Agree with you Mark on the speedier run rounds. If the unfitted train has two locos the driver would be using the proportional (auto) brake to control the 2nd loco and whatever was piped to it. If however the train was hauled by a single loco, IMHO, at least some drivers preferred to use the straight air brake which wouldn't operate on the solitary fitted van anyway.

 

There were instructions to make up fitted heads in line trains but it is questionable how much they were actually used by drivers, particularly with AFI brakes etc in the fitted head.