Harburn Hobbies Leith General Warehouse wagons

[JeremyC]

Harburn Hobbies have 'Cottage Roof Wagons' advertised on their website in three different liveries:

 

33-177V 'DCL',

33-177U 'Leith General Warehousing',

33-177T 'LGW'.

 

Leaving aside the comment on another thread that they aren't the correct wagon type, what period is each livery suitable for? [The thread mentioned says 60s - 70s but the HH advert says the LGW is later livery so I assume the others are earlier.]

 

Jeremy

[Il Grifone]

The wooden wagons are a pre-war* design (used also for salt traffic and basically an RCH mineral wagon with a roof), that probably lasted into the 50s, possibly early 60s**, whereas the other thread is referring to the later steel grain wagons - the BR standard 1950s design (based on an LMS 30s diagram) modelled by Hornby Dublo/Wrenn/Dapol (a couple of feet too short due to sharing an underframe with an overlong cattle wagon) and the later air braked wagons.

 

* probably pre WW I

** Wooden underframed wagons were enthusiastically scrapped in this period.

 

Sorry I can't help with livery dates.

[cctransuk]

The wooden wagons are a pre-war* design (used also for salt traffic and basically an RCH mineral wagon with a roof), that probably lasted into the 50s, possibly early 60s**.....

 

Unless I'm missing something here, the OP is referring to PO timber wagons, similar to salt wagons, that were used for grain traffic in the Leith area. These lasted surprisingly late - at least into the 1970's I believe.

 

Parkside have produced a 4mm. scale kit for many years.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

http://www.cctrans.freeserve.co.uk/

[hmrspaul]

Harburn Hobbies have 'Cottage Roof Wagons' advertised on their website in three different liveries:

 

33-177V 'DCL',

33-177U 'Leith General Warehousing',

33-177T 'LGW'.

 

Leaving aside the comment on another thread that they aren't the correct wagon type, what period is each livery suitable for? [The thread mentioned says 60s - 70s but the HH advert says the LGW is later livery so I assume the others are earlier.]

 

Jeremy

In Larkin, David (1976) Private owner freight wagons on British Railways Pictorial survey. Bradford Barton Ltd, Cornwall ISBN 0 85153 294 2, 64 pages there are photos by Don Rowland of a LGW no. 168 in very good condition dated 1964 (steel underframe) and a worn DCL no. 52 (which has a wooden underframe). This is undated but many of Don's photographs are early 1960s - after all he is still with us. Both appear to be in trains. Neither have roller bearings!!!!

 

In Gamble, G (1999) compiled British Railway Private Owner Wagons Opens and Hoppers Railways in Profile Series no. 9 Cheona Publications (ISBN 1900298-11-2) There are two 1965 photographs of wooden underframe wagons in ownership of Robert Hutchinson & Co Ltd Kirkcaldy one of which clearly has the remains of LGW beneath the livery. So there was some takeovers. Whether these wagons worked on the mainline I have no idea - They appear to have grease boxes so if they were permitted 'out' it would have been very limited if at all.

 

Paul Bartlett

[Boris]

I have a photograph in "British Railways - Nationalisation to Privatisation" by Brian Sharp on page 54 showing a train of 14 of these wagons passing Portobello East Junction hauled by a Clayton 1, the picture is dated August 1964.

[Roddy Angus]

My understanding from a conversation is that the LGW version is intended to represent the wagon as it ran in BR times. However I don't have any photographic evidence to back this up as the copies of LGW wagons that I have seen aren't good enough to read the markings.

 

Does anyone know if Leith General Warehousing had any other wagons apart from the grain wagons? The use of "general" in the name would imply that they handled other goods, but of course they may not have had their own wagons for these.

 

Roddy

[DS239]

I have a photograph in "British Railways - Nationalisation to Privatisation" by Brian Sharp on page 54 showing a train of 14 of these wagons passing Portobello East Junction hauled by a Clayton 1, the picture is dated August 1964.

 

That's the photo I was thinking of referencing,as it also appears on p.79 of 'Scottish Region Colour Album No.1' by George C. O'Hara.

[Garethp8873]

Although this rather late now, I did email Harburn Hobbies in September of last year regarding their periods. My reply was:

 

Dear Mr *****

 

Thank you for your email. From the information we have the Leith General

Warehousing wagon is fine for the Big Four period. As they are later

abbreviations we reckon LGW and DCL missed this period. Hope this is of

some help.

 

Many thanks

Harburn Hobbies

 

I myself would like some clarification over this before I order the wagons.

 

Garethp8873.

[Caledonian]

The Edinburgh volume of Booklaw's Rail Centres series by A.J. Mullay (2004) has a very clear photo of a trip working at South Leith in October 1953. The first five wagons are Leith ones and although they represent at least two different build variants - the centre one certainly has a lower but sharper roof profile. All five are lettered LGW, which would suggest that Harburns have got it right and that the legend written in full belongs to the pre-nationalisation period while the LGW markings are appropriate for BR.

[jvermij]

Hi folks. I'm working on a micro layout of the North British Distillery, Edinburgh in N-gauge. You can find some progress reports here at Steamteam.Wordpress. The LGW used these wagons to bring grain to the distillery and I've been looking for the right livery for a while. The Harburn Hobbies unfortunately is 00, so I have to redo the wagons completely. So which one is which?

 

From the distillery I have a picture from the 1950's, so post war livery.

 

During WWII it was common practise to shorten the names as to save paint, a practise continued after the war. So the full name will be the pre-war version that I need for my micro layout, though it will make things harder to paint.

 

A little more info in this blogpost: Rolling Stock

[keefer]

with ref. to hutchinson's flour mills, i remembered photos i'd seen on RCAHMS while researching the kirkcaldy harbour railway for another topic.

hutchinson's wagon: https://canmore.org.uk/collection/610162

L.G.W. wagon: https://canmore.org.uk/collection/610163

both from a john hume collection dated october 1967

 

EDIT 19/08/2016: updated links to the photos

Edited August 19, 2016 by keefer

[Caledonian]

Nice ones; but it comes back again to the old question of just how far these beasties roamed. The text for the October 1953 photo I mentioned above (on page 70 by the way) said that they were regularly tripped round from Leith to Haymarket Goods, but what happened next?

[jvermij]

Here's an image of the Haymarket area which I did in Wintrack;

 

 

The North British Distillery is across the engine sheds on the mainline and the branch to Gorgie and Slateford. At Slateford was the corn market, so I guess here is where LGW picked up the grain for the North British Distillery. @Caledonian, note the Wester Dalry branchline which is Caledonian Railways

['CHARD]

On 05/03/2011 at 15:58, Caledonian said:

Nice ones; but it comes back again to the old question of just how far these beasties roamed. The text for the October 1953 photo I mentioned above (on page 70 by the way) said that they were regularly tripped round from Leith to Haymarket Goods, but what happened next?

 

Disclaimer: RailScot image links not working on 22/4/2020, may still exist if you input certain search terms.

 

Class 17 with long rake running from Gorgie to Leith in February 1970:

https://www.railscot.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=29927

 

D8505 with the cottages running Leith - Gorgie:

https://www.railscot.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=36823

 

And a third:

https://www.railscot.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=29055

 

 

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but an email alerted me to yet another flawed product aiming to facsimile the prototype - this time from Dapol, an example here: http://www.hattons.co.uk/209743/Dapol_4F_018_010_Salt_Van_L_G_W_153_Weathered/StockDetail.aspx

 

Yet again the clue is in the description, it's touted as a salt wagon, so it's inevitably going to be wrong.

 

I just can't believe by how wide a margin, though.  The body bears no real resemblance, and the livery is a toylike imagining of the actual scheme.  

Edited April 22, 2020 by 'CHARD
To add disclaimer

[Roddy Angus]

Does anyone know if Leith General Warehousing used any other sorts of wagons apart from grain wagons? 

 

Thanks

 

Roddy

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

 

I am not aware of any other wagons owned by LGW certainly not on the mainline as the grain vans were. The Harburn and Dapol ones are I believe re paints of peak roof salt wagons which although a similar shape have quite a few differences. My friend Pete Westwater produced a 4mm kit for one some years ago in the "Westykits" range and I marketed these for some time. The moulds went to Parkside and I believe the kit is still available for those who want to get it right.

The Hutchisons wagons photographed at Kirkcaldy were I believe internal user. Certainly latterly they were only used within the Harbour/ Hutchisons works area. My Grandfather had a painting/coachworks business and I believe that he lettered these. We are distantly related to the Hutchison family and he must have taken advantage of this to temporarily paint up and photograph one side of one as "Kirk of Kirkcaldy". Presumably as an advert. There was a photograph of this in his office in the late 50s but unfortunately I have never seen it since.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

Edited August 20, 2016 by Ian Kirk

[Roddy Angus]

Thanks Ian.  Like you I have never seen any pictures of other LGW wagons and am assuming that, despite their name, all they ever transported by rail was grain.  I've built a fair few of the Parkside kit over the years and while the moulds are showing their age it still builds into a good representation.

 

Regards

 

Roddy

[Il Grifone]

Class 17 with long rake running from Gorgie to Leith in February 1970:

https://www.railscot.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=29927

 

D8505 with the cottages running Leith - Gorgie:

https://www.railscot.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=36823

 

And a third:

https://www.railscot.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=29055

 

 

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but an email alerted me to yet another flawed product aiming to facsimile the prototype - this time from Dapol, an example here: http://www.hattons.co.uk/209743/Dapol_4F_018_010_Salt_Van_L_G_W_153_Weathered/StockDetail.aspx

 

Yet again the clue is in the description, it's touted as a salt wagon, so it's inevitably going to be wrong.

 

I just can't believe by how wide a margin, though.  The body bears no real resemblance, and the livery is a toylike imagining of the actual scheme.  

 

"Toylike" is understandable, as the body is basically the Hornby Dublo one from the fifties. It was stretched to fit their standard 17' 6" underframe and roof detail was notable for its absence. Dublo produced it as 'Saxa Salt' and Wrenn in other liveries. Dapol's underframe is a considerable improvement on the original (which dated from the thirties) or even the sixties update. I'm not too sure about the brown weathering either - all I can recall is a layer of black greasy crud.

 

IIRC there was a Peco Wonderful Wagon kit in LGW livery.

 

I was surprised that they lasted into the seventies, but they do appear to have steel underframes and oil boxes.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Il Grifone

[Bernard Lamb]

 

 

I was surprised that they lasted into the seventies, but they do appear to have steel underframes and oil boxes.

I would reckon that the low mileage would be a good part of any explanation regarding longevity.

It must be around 7 miles maximum each way for their usual working and I doubt if they did that very many times a week.

Building replacements would probably not have been viable and converting the loading/unloading facilities for road traffic would have involved additional capital cost.

Canny embra folk would not be spending money when it wasn't essential.

Bernard

[Fat Controller]

If you would like to try a kit, then there's one here:-

http://www.parksidedundas.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_PRIVATE_OWNERS.html

BTW; Harburn's get a name check in one of the Rebus novels.

[dunwurken]

Did Peco not have an LGW van in their wonderful wagon series?

Malcolm

[DOCJACOB]

Quite a number of images are on Railbrit website. 1 image each in Waverley A Sivitar and Rail Centres Edinburgh A J Mullay 

 

These is a page about them in the book The Edinburgh Suburban and South Side Junction Railway A A Maclean Oakwood OL139 

 

Appears existed in 4 types with either steel or wooden under frames The later varieties having 10 1/2 or 11 plank sides.

 

One curiosity that has never been explained is a picture (printed NB Study Group Journal 85 ) of a Leith General Warehousing wagon at Granton (definitely not its usual haunt) 

 

On the livery issue I always thought lettering white shaded black but the one in SRPS Museum is white shaded red lettering 

['CHARD]

On 20/08/2016 at 21:30, Ian Kirk said:

Hi,

 

I am not aware of any other wagons owned by LGW certainly not on the mainline as the grain vans were. The Harburn and Dapol ones are I believe re paints of peak roof salt wagons which although a similar shape have quite a few differences. My friend Pete Westwater produced a 4mm kit for one some years ago in the "Westykits" range and I marketed these for some time. The moulds went to Parkside and I believe the kit is still available for those who want to get it right.

The Hutchisons wagons photographed at Kirkcaldy were I believe internal user. Certainly latterly they were only used within the Harbour/ Hutchisons works area. My Grandfather had a painting/coachworks business and I believe that he lettered these. We are distantly related to the Hutchison family and he must have taken advantage of this to temporarily paint up and photograph one side of one as "Kirk of Kirkcaldy". Presumably as an advert. There was a photograph of this in his office in the late 50s but unfortunately I have never seen it since.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

 

Found a pair of Westykits cottages on Ebay today!

 

EDIT: they're no longer for sale 

Edited April 22, 2020 by 'CHARD
Smugness