Combined South Wales Freightliner and Passenger Trains

[Pixie]

Hello all,

 

Flicking through some newly arrived Modern Railways today, I noticed that the February 1970 issue mentions that the WR had started to add on Freightliner flats to the 08:00 Paddington - Fishguard working at Cardiff for Irish traffic. This took me a little surprise as I don't recall seeing any photos or mention of such a working before hand. A quick cross check in my 1971/2 Arrivals and Departure booklet makes no mention of anything being add and only allows the usual 4 minutes for the stop at Cardiff General. The 1970/1 WTT also only allows 4 mintues at General and doesn't seem to indicate a stop anywhere else to allow the vehicels to be added.

 

Does anyone have any recollections or further information on these combined trains? Was it a short lived experiment or did it continue for some time? Photos, sightings, memories or anything else is welcomed and really appreciated.

 

Boomshanka,

 

Pix

[The Stationmaster]

OOh heck - long time ago Pix but I can't recall it going on when I transferred was transferred to South Wales in late 1971 although I did spend most of my time well away from the mainline for a lot of my sojourn down there.

[Fat Controller]

I remember seeing it a few times; I think it only ran for one season. It would have passed my school around about the time we broke for lunch- the Motorail was a little later. Pretty certain it was a Brush Type 4 job- were any Westerns air-braked that early?

Four minutes wouldn't have been too unreasonable for an 'Attach' time- I wonder if the attachment was done in the station itself, or just outside? BR'll probably remember....

[eastwestdivide]

There's a mention of it in this newsgroup archive

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Uk/uk.railway/2008-03/msg03598.html

where it says freightliner west of Llanelli.

[Pixie]

Thanks for all the replies chaps, very useful!

 

I remember seeing it a few times; I think it only ran for one season.

 

I'm guessing a season would end when the new timetable came in Bri? Which would mean it'd only of run from February to May 1970ish?

 

It would have passed my school around about the time we broke for lunch- the Motorail was a little later. Pretty certain it was a Brush Type 4 job- were any Westerns air-braked that early?

 

I think the Wizzo's recieved air brakes around '68/69 so I guess there's a chance they could of ended up working the train. It must of been quite a sight to watch go by, I can imagine it seeming very long!

 

Whoever can produce a photo of the working wins a coconut....

 

Thanks again,

 

Pix

[br2975]

One of our club members was working for Freightliner at Pengam around about that time.

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He's not an RMweb member, but I'll forward the post to him.

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Stand by

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Brian R

[Pixie]

Cheers Brian!

 

Pix

[br2975]

Pix.

 

I asked Paul at our club about this, as he was working at Pengam during this period.

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He cannot recall the service, but says that doesn't mean it didn't run.

 

Neither can he recall the movement of 'flats' from Pengam up to Cardiff General for attaching to other trains OR attaching them to a passenger train outside the Pengam Freightliner depot.

 

However, what he does recall is attaching a Mk.2 Brake second to a Pengam - Fishguard Freightliner during that time, the reason(s) for which are lost in time .....

 

The return Fishguard arrived at Pengam late Saturday (afternoon/evening) with 'boxes' containing sides of bacon (packed with dry ice) and 'opens' containing fish.

 

Paul syas it was commonplace to arrive at Pengam on a Sunday, to shunt these flats into the Willesden service, and find the box doors open, and a portion of the loads ...... gone !

 

I wonder what power would be used on such a service as described, it must have been a Cl.47 as I don't believe air braking of 'thousands' had commenced at that time (ISTBC).

 

Perhaps someone has a BR (WR) PTM booklet somewhere that has additional info ?

 

Whilst this doesn't answer your original question, I hope it helps in some way ?

 

Brian

[Fat Controller]

Pix.

 

I asked Paul at our club about this, as he was working at Pengam during this period.

.

He cannot recall the service, but says that doesn't mean it didn't run.

 

Neither can he recall the movement of 'flats' from Pengam up to Cardiff General for attaching to other trains OR attaching them to a passenger train outside the Pengam Freightliner depot.

 

However, what he does recall is attaching a Mk.2 Brake second to a Pengam - Fishguard Freightliner during that time, the reason(s) for which are lost in time .....

 

The return Fishguard arrived at Pengam late Saturday (afternoon/evening) with 'boxes' containing sides of bacon (packed with dry ice) and 'opens' containing fish.

 

Paul syas it was commonplace to arrive at Pengam on a Sunday, to shunt these flats into the Willesden service, and find the box doors open, and a portion of the loads ...... gone !

 

I wonder what power would be used on such a service as described, it must have been a Cl.47 as I don't believe air braking of 'thousands' had commenced at that time (ISTBC).

 

Perhaps someone has a BR (WR) PTM booklet somewhere that has additional info ?

 

Whilst this doesn't answer your original question, I hope it helps in some way ?

 

Brian

 

Funny- I don't remember seeing the Freightliner wagons on their own.

Sadly, pilfering like that wasn't uncommon; it wasn't helped by the practice, recounted by a former colleague who had served as a manager in BR days, of moving passenger-facing staff who had been subject to passenger complaints or suspected of dishonesty, to areas out of the public view. This was viewed as being easier than sacking them. Bricklayer's Arms had a particularily bad reputation, according to this chap (Stephen Poole, who wrote about it in 'The Crumbling Edge of Quality')- a shame that it was BR's main Parcels Concentration Depot for much of South London.

[br2975]

Funny- I don't remember seeing the Freightliner wagons on their own.

Sadly, pilfering like that wasn't uncommon; it wasn't helped by the practice, recounted by a former colleague who had served as a manager in BR days, of moving passenger-facing staff who had been subject to passenger complaints or suspected of dishonesty, to areas out of the public view. This was viewed as being easier than sacking them. Bricklayer's Arms had a particularily bad reputation, according to this chap (Stephen Poole, who wrote about it in 'The Crumbling Edge of Quality')- a shame that it was BR's main Parcels Concentration Depot for much of South London.

 

Whilst we are discussing a period when 'diesel' was popular (ie "diesel do for me" and "diesel do for the boy")the location of the Pengam facility made it ripe for raiding parties from the local housing estate(s) and nearby traveller sites, both of which continue to provide a security issue for local industry (eg Celsa UK).

 

Freightliner are now located at Wentloog, a mere stone's throw (literally) from another traveller site - and almost opposite a huge housing development that gave rise to some of the youths who were recently run down by an ATW Sprinter as they made off from a commercial burglary riding a quad bike along the SWML.

 

I can also recall when the Royal Mint sent their produce by container, and some enterprising 'footpads' rode one train out of Pengam, forced open a container and threw the bags of currency onto the lineside.

 

Which then reminds me of the Royal Mint £1 coin blanks that once ended up being dumped on a council tip in Cardiff - the local gaming machines lost a fortune for weeks after !

 

Heaven help us when the locals identify the Wentloog - Didcot M.O.D. service !

 

Brian R

[br2975]

Pix

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You have mail

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Brian

[Pixie]

Whilst this doesn't answer your original question, I hope it helps in some way ?

 

An interesting post as always Brian! My only presumption is that the Mk.2 brakes were used as guard facilities, a bit like the old Mk.1 suburbans were. I'll keep my eyes peeled in Railway Observers and the like, I'm sure something will turn up.

 

Thanks again,

 

Pix

[Fat Controller]

An interesting post as always Brian! My only presumption is that the Mk.2 brakes were used as guard facilities, a bit like the old Mk.1 suburbans were. I'll keep my eyes peeled in Railway Observers and the like, I'm sure something will turn up.

 

Thanks again,

 

Pix

I think BR had sorted out the guard issue by then- can't find the date, but I'm sure it was some time in 1969. Perhaps the Mk2 WAS the passenger part of the train- loadings could be pretty light during the day mid-week!

[Pixie]

I think BR had sorted out the guard issue by then- can't find the date, but I'm sure it was some time in 1969. Perhaps the Mk2 WAS the passenger part of the train- loadings could be pretty light during the day mid-week!

 

As you say Brian, it seems that the guards started to go in the rear cabs from May '68. I guess that rules that one out.

 

Looking at the Carriage Working Programme that the good Mr Rolley sent across, the 08:00 ex-Paddington was meant to be formed of 11 vehicles so cutting it down to one would seem a bit extreme... I bet the acceleration would have been good though between Paddington and Cardiff! Interestingly it's stated that the rear BFK and FK was to be detached at Swansea, I wonder if these could be linked to the Mk.2 brake that's mentioned above?

 

Pix

[multiprinter]

 

Looking at the Carriage Working Programme that the good Mr Rolley sent across, the 08:00 ex-Paddington was meant to be formed of 11 vehicles so cutting it down to one would seem a bit extreme... I bet the acceleration would have been good though between Paddington and Cardiff! Interestingly it's stated that the rear BFK and FK was to be detached at Swansea, I wonder if these could be linked to the Mk.2 brake that's mentioned above?

 

Pix

 

If two vehicles were removed at Swansea that would still leave nine, nominally 315 tons. Add a five wagon freightliner set to that and we get a potentially rather heavy train to take up Cockett bank.

[The Stationmaster]

As you say Brian, it seems that the guards started to go in the rear cabs from May '68. I guess that rules that one out.

 

Looking at the Carriage Working Programme that the good Mr Rolley sent across, the 08:00 ex-Paddington was meant to be formed of 11 vehicles so cutting it down to one would seem a bit extreme... I bet the acceleration would have been good though between Paddington and Cardiff! Interestingly it's stated that the rear BFK and FK was to be detached at Swansea, I wonder if these could be linked to the Mk.2 brake that's mentioned above?

 

Pix

 

Pix

 

If you have the complete book you shold be able to pick up what those vehicles did next off the Circuit Number (which should be shown somewhere in the margin next to them). A passenger train formed with two coaches back then would have been quite severely speed restricted so I doubt they went very far on their own.

And Guards were deifinitely in back cabs before 1970.

[Fat Controller]

If two vehicles were removed at Swansea that would still leave nine, nominally 315 tons. Add a five wagon freightliner set to that and we get a potentially rather heavy train to take up Cockett bank.

Would it have gone via Cockett? I thought the Fishguard trains were the only ones to regularly use the District Line.

[multiprinter]

Would it have gone via Cockett? I thought the Fishguard trains were the only ones to regularly use the District Line.

 

If it had vehicles removed at Swansea it would have then run via Cockett. I too was under the impression that in those days it would have gone via the district.

[multiprinter]

Thinking about this a bit more, I wonder if the freightliners were added at Llanelli / Llandeilo Jct. after the train had run via the district. (They would have been tripped from Danygraig FLT)

[Fat Controller]

Thinking about this a bit more, I wonder if the freightliners were added at Llanelli / Llandeilo Jct. after the train had run via the district. (They would have been tripped from Danygraig FLT)

I'd not heard of this happening- sadly, the one person I knew at Danygraig (who also ran a model shop in Swansea) died may years ago.

Is it possible that the two coaches for Swansea were detached at Cardiff, then attached to a van train? The rest of the formation, with Freightliners attached at Cardiff, could have run via the District Line.

Another reason for doubting that the train rain from Cardiff, via Swansea, with the Freightliner portion attached, is that at some point the Freightliners would have been between the loco and the rest of the train. As there was no provision for running the train heating via these wagons, then either the train would have to be run around the wagons, or the passenger portion would have been unheated. It wasn't until the 'Far North' operation in Scotland, about a decade later, that a small number of Freightliner wagons received through steam-pipes.

[The Stationmaster]

I can't delve out anything relating specifically to Fishguard but the Freightliner working Instructions were amended in March 1971 when authority was given to attach up to 10 Freightliner vehicles to a passenger train provided that the train was air braked, the wagons were marshalled with outer units at each end and coupled to the rear of the train and that the last vehicle had the automatic brake in working order. Train to be dealt with and signalled as a passenger train and max speed 75mph.

[eastwestdivide]

A newsgroup item from 2008 at

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Uk/uk.railway/2008-03/msg03914.html

 

says

"The container section was worked independently from Danygraig

Freightliner Terminal to Llanelli where it was attached to the rear of

Fishguard boat train at the station."

 

and an earlier post at

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Uk/uk.railway/2008-03/msg03598.html

 

says

"In the late 1960s/1970s, there was also a summer daytime Motorail

service between Kensington Olympia and Fishguard & Goodwick station

using carflats, sometimes with a portion detached at Carmarthen Jc for

Carmarthen (worked by a class 08). At around this period the regular

daytime Paddington-Fishguard Harbour boat train also conveyed

Freightliner containers west of Llanelli which was quite a novel

sight."

[The Stationmaster]

A newsgroup item from 2008 at

http://newsgroups.de...3/msg03914.html

 

says

"The container section was worked independently from Danygraig

Freightliner Terminal to Llanelli where it was attached to the rear of

Fishguard boat train at the station."

 

and an earlier post at

http://newsgroups.de...3/msg03598.html

 

says

"In the late 1960s/1970s, there was also a summer daytime Motorail

service between Kensington Olympia and Fishguard & Goodwick station

using carflats, sometimes with a portion detached at Carmarthen Jc for

Carmarthen (worked by a class 08). At around this period the regular

daytime Paddington-Fishguard Harbour boat train also conveyed

Freightliner containers west of Llanelli which was quite a novel

sight."

 

I wonder a bit about some of the information posted there. There was quite a lot mentioned about the Paddington - Milford Haven sleeper train conveying a TPO which it definitely didn't from 1970 onwards (unless one was attached somewhere in South Wales, possibly ex Manchester?). And I'm trying to work out quite how the Kensington - Fishguard Motorail served Carmarthen without calling there - one thing detaching the Carflats but how did the passengers get there (I'll see if I can delve out the timetables and have a look at that as it doesn't accord with memory - but it was a long time ago).

Having now checked the timetables the Kensington -Fishguard only conveyed Carmarthen cars for one season - in the year before the train was transferred to a Paddington start. From the latter year it is easy to trace the probability of passengers for Carmarthen changing at Cardiff but as the times of the Kensington train aren't shown in full I can't be sure what happened in they year in which the train ran from there although I'm fairly sure that it too involved a change at Cardiff as the train stopped there for crew relief.

[eastwestdivide]

Maybe it was just coaches for Carmarthen, and the remaining coaches and all the motorail went on to Fishguard? That post doesn't specifically say carflats to Carmarthen.

 

Edit: to further muddy the waters, I just dug out a 1974 ABC rail guide, which lists a Motoraill service London-Carmarthen (overnight), but no Fishguard motorail.

However on the opposite page, the list of motorail charges includes Fishguard and Carmarthen.

With Carmarthen (day) and Fishguard being one class only, but Carmarthen (night) having both 1st and 2nd class. A further note implies that the FIshguard and Carmarthen (day) service was summer-only, while this was a winter timetable, showing the Carmarthen (night) as all-year-round.

 

None of which really helps the original topic, but does add to the complexity of workings out in the Wild West.

[The Stationmaster]

Maybe it was just coaches for Carmarthen, and the remaining coaches and all the motorail went on to Fishguard? That post doesn't specifically say carflats to Carmarthen.

 

Edit: to further muddy the waters, I just dug out a 1974 ABC rail guide, which lists a Motoraill service London-Carmarthen (overnight), but no Fishguard motorail.

However on the opposite page, the list of motorail charges includes Fishguard and Carmarthen.

With Carmarthen (day) and Fishguard being one class only, but Carmarthen (night) having both 1st and 2nd class. A further note implies that the FIshguard and Carmarthen (day) service was summer-only, while this was a winter timetable, showing the Carmarthen (night) as all-year-round.

 

None of which really helps the original topic, but does add to the complexity of workings out in the Wild West.

 

 

 

That makes sense (honest) as the Carmarthen night Motorail service was in a GUV attached to a sleeper which also conveyed Motorail for Swansea if it followed the 1973 pattern (I can't lay hands on my 1974 TT). The day service was summer only if it followed the previous pattern and by then all the Motorail trains started from Paddington instead of Kensington and the 07.50 Padd was in reality the day Fishguard boat train and the Fishguard Motorail train rolled into one.