UCV Clayhood's

[Mike Huxley]

Hi,

 

I'm in the process of building a layout based on the China Clay area around Goonbarrow in Cornwall in the late 70's. The problem that I have come up against is finding suitable kits of Clayhoods in "O" gauge. The Skytrex RTR model is far from right, having no end door so I've ruled it out. Short of converting a kit to fit the end door used on these wagons, I can't think of anything else.

 

Can anybody sugest a kit that is available or a good starting point to convert a kit.

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

[hmrspaul]

Hi,

 

I'm in the process of building a layout based on the China Clay area around Goonbarrow in Cornwall in the late 70's. The problem that I have come up against is finding suitable kits of Clayhoods in "O" gauge. The Skytrex RTR model is far from right, having no end door so I've ruled it out. Short of converting a kit to fit the end door used on these wagons, I can't think of anything else.

 

Can anybody sugest a kit that is available or a good starting point to convert a kit.

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

 

Mike - WEP are listed as doing one of the original GWR ones. http://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/catalogue/wep

I've never seen one, but the BR ones were very old fashioned - only 16ft. 6in. OH so could be a possible starting point. Drawing of UCV reproduced in (Kemp, Eric) & Mann, Trevor (1990) Special Wagons. Model Railways vol. 7 (part 6) pp 308 - 314 as well as Bartlett, P., Larkin, D., Mann, T., Silsbury, R., and Ward, A. (1985) An illustrated history of BR wagons, Volume 1 published by Oxford Publishing Company, 192 pages.

 

see http://www.gwr.org.uk/kits7goods1.html

 

Paul Bartlett

[Mike Huxley]

Mike - WEP are listed as doing one of the original GWR ones. http://www.ukmodelsh...k/catalogue/wep

I've never seen one, but the BR ones were very old fashioned - only 16ft. 6in. OH so could be a possible starting point. Drawing of UCV reproduced in (Kemp, Eric) & Mann, Trevor (1990) Special Wagons. Model Railways vol. 7 (part 6) pp 308 - 314 as well as Bartlett, P., Larkin, D., Mann, T., Silsbury, R., and Ward, A. (1985) An illustrated history of BR wagons, Volume 1 published by Oxford Publishing Company, 192 pages.

 

see http://www.gwr.org.uk/kits7goods1.html

 

Paul Bartlett

 

 

Paul, thanks for your quick reply. I have seen the WEP kit listed but dismissed it as being a too early a version Dia O13 and only being 16 foot overall length. It's really hard to find a kit of an open 5 even plank wagon

with a 16ft 6in body and a 9ft wheelbase. I know, I'm being pickey about what I want, but I hate making a model of something that isn't what it should be.

 

I have several good drawings of the Diag 1/051 wagon and there are some very good pictures supplied on Paul Bartletts site that will help me with the details.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[hmrspaul]

Paul, thanks for your quick reply. I have seen the WEP kit listed but dismissed it as being a too early a version Dia O13 and only being 16 foot overall length. It's really hard to find a kit of an open 5 even plank wagon

with a 16ft 6in body and a 9ft wheelbase. I know, I'm being pickey about what I want, but I hate making a model of something that isn't what it should be.

 

I have several good drawings of the Diag 1/051 wagon and there are some very good pictures supplied on Paul Bartletts site that will help me with the details.

 

Cheers,

Mike

Mike

 

My mistake, UCVs are only 16ft OH. I should have looked at the drawing of my own measuring! Ignoring the brake rigging the O13 photo in Tourret looks very similar to the BR wagon. Even the buffers should be correct, if WEP did them properly.

 

And don't overlook that the Clayliners came in most of the forms that wooden bodied High fits were produced in from late 1930s onwards.

Clay open merchandise wagons, pre-nationalisation origin – 30 photographs http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/c163031.html

BR Clay open merchandise wagons, BR origin – 30 photographs http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/c163789.html

 

Regards

 

Paul Bartlett

[d600]

Hi,

 

I'm in the process of building a layout based on the China Clay area around Goonbarrow in Cornwall in the late 70's. The problem that I have come up against is finding suitable kits of Clayhoods in "O" gauge. The Skytrex RTR model is far from right, having no end door so I've ruled it out. Short of converting a kit to fit the end door used on these wagons, I can't think of anything else.

 

Can anybody sugest a kit that is available or a good starting point to convert a kit.

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

 

Hello you could use the coopercraft gwr 5 plank wagon kits,cheap and ideal for kit bashing or scratchbuilding if they need to be spot on.

 

cheers

[Mike Huxley]

Mike

 

My mistake, UCVs are only 16ft OH. I should have looked at the drawing of my own measuring! Ignoring the brake rigging the O13 photo in Tourret looks very similar to the BR wagon. Even the buffers should be correct, if WEP did them properly.

 

And don't overlook that the Clayliners came in most of the forms that wooden bodied High fits were produced in from late 1930s onwards.

Clay open merchandise wagons, pre-nationalisation origin – 30 photographs http://gallery6801.f...et/c163031.html

BR Clay open merchandise wagons, BR origin – 30 photographs http://gallery6801.f...et/c163789.html

 

Regards

 

Paul Bartlett

 

 

Hi Paul,

 

Sorry I didn't twig at first that you are the provider of that lovely wagon picture site that I refered to in my last post.

 

Yes you are right, the GWR converted Clayliners can be made I think by using a Parkside kit for the Dia O32/33 with a 17' 6" length and a 10' wheelbase and adding roller bearing axle boxes

with other refinements.

 

Also, the WEP kit for the Dia O13 could be used for the 16' Clayhoods, but again would need roller bearing boxes. However my personal feeling on etched brass kits for open wagons is that the thicknes of the brass doesn't represent the width of the wagon planking in "O" gauge, they are fine for steel constructed wagons or vans, but not wood bodied.

 

Anyway, you have given me a few ideas, so I'm going to try the Parkside kit out for a starter.

 

Again, your site is a fantastic resource for information.

Many thanks,

Mike

[Mike Huxley]

Hello you could use the coopercraft gwr 5 plank wagon kits,cheap and ideal for kit bashing or scratchbuilding if they need to be spot on.

 

cheers

 

Hi d600,

 

I did think of using the Coopercraft kit, however although the length and wheelbase are correct and the price is would be right, one end would have to be totally rebuilt to represent the end door. Not such an easy job when I want at least 30 of these wagons.

 

It would be nice if Parkwood would produce an "O" gauge version of their 4mm model of the Dia O13 clay wagon, then it would save loads of time and effort.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[hmrspaul]

Hi Paul,

 

 

Yes you are right, the GWR converted Clayliners can be made I think by using a Parkside kit for the Dia O32/33 with a 17' 6" length and a 10' wheelbase and adding roller bearing axle boxes

with other refinements.

 

Also, the WEP kit for the Dia O13 could be used for the 16' Clayhoods, but again would need roller bearing boxes. However my personal feeling on etched brass kits for open wagons is that the thicknes of the brass doesn't represent the width of the wagon planking in "O" gauge, they are fine for steel constructed wagons or vans, but not wood bodied.

 

Mike

 

Mike Clayliners used all pre-nat Companies and BR wagons. Many were roller bearing but do not be misled into thinking that anything like all were.

 

More importantly - in 4mm Bachmann and Ratio have both made the MISTAKE of fitting roller bearings to the UCVs - lots of criticisms on various sites. These were very very rare, nearly all of them had oil axleboxes. I'm not messing about, BR often got out very old drawings, upgraded the brake arrangements and running gear and built what was basically a very old wagon. One mistake (amongst many) was the suggestion in our BR Wagon book that only the first BR lot were unfitted, I have corrected elsewhere it was all of the first 300 - B743000-299, but impossible to see what the differences were between the rebuilds and those originally built VB.

 

I do totally agree with you about the unsuitability of etched brass for open wagons in 7mm. I avoid them, although I have had on the stocks for a decade a lovely late BR Tube wagon, which I have lined with wood and has castings for the corrugated ends. For some reason (well I like them) I do have a kit for the LNER tube which requires the sides to be doubled over. Not sure if I will ever get around to making it!

 

Paul Bartlett

[hmrspaul]

Hi d600,

 

I did think of using the Coopercraft kit, however although the length and wheelbase are correct and the price is would be right, one end would have to be totally rebuilt to represent the end door. Not such an easy job when I want at least 30 of these wagons.

 

It would be nice if Parkwood would produce an "O" gauge version of their 4mm model of the Dia O13 clay wagon, then it would save loads of time and effort.

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

Do Parkside do one as well?

 

More to the point, I am sure that if you broadened this query you would find help in casting the end to fit on the Coopercraft kit - resin seems a possibility. One of the WEP ends may well be a suitable master if you are not willing to make your own. There would be no copyright implications so long as it was for your own use and you did not make castings commercially available.

 

Paul Bartlett

 

Sorry, misread Parkwood as Parkside. But looking at t'internet did they not only do 2mm wagon kits and these have been passed to the NGS?

http://rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=39299&start=0

[Phil Traxson]

Hi d600,

 

I did think of using the Coopercraft kit, however although the length and wheelbase are correct and the price is would be right, one end would have to be totally rebuilt to represent the end door. Not such an easy job when I want at least 30 of these wagons.

 

It would be nice if Parkwood would produce an "O" gauge version of their 4mm model of the Dia O13 clay wagon, then it would save loads of time and effort.

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

Mike

 

If its only the end door that is causing the problem you could scratchbuild one good end door as a pattern and I would be happy to produce the number you need in resin. I also produce one piece wagon bodies(above the solebar) from 3mm scale through to gauge 1 with no problems. PM me if this sounds interesting.

 

Phil Traxson

Port Wynnstay Models

[Mike Huxley]

Do Parkside do one as well?

 

Sorry, misread Parkwood as Parkside. But looking at t'internet did they not only do 2mm wagon kits and these have been passed to the NGS?

http://rmweb.co.uk/f...t=39299&start=0

 

Paul, my mistake again, I did mean "Parkside" and yes they do make a 4mm model of the O13 GWR clay wagon. http://www.parksidedundas.co.uk/acatalog/GREAT_WESTERN_RAILWAY.html

 

Yes I do realise that the Clayliners come with all variations of axleboxes and all forms of open wagons, but adding roller bearings to some of the models would make a nice variation and tie up with some of the pictures on your web page for the ex GWR types.

 

Making a "master" for the end would seem to be an option and one that I will look into doing. However, I think I would go along the lines of making it myself and not using WEP's parts. I would have to study what other changes need to be made to a Coopercraft kit to make this version. It wouldn't be just the end, the sides would have to be modified to remove the corner plates from the tip end along with revised break gear.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[Mike Huxley]

Mike

 

If its only the end door that is causing the problem you could scratchbuild one good end door as a pattern and I would be happy to produce the number you need in resin. I also produce one piece wagon bodies(above the solebar) from 3mm scale through to gauge 1 with no problems. PM me if this sounds interesting.

 

Phil Traxson

Port Wynnstay Models

 

 

Hi Phil,

 

Thanks for the offer. I'll have a look at what may be needed to do a conversion and then get back to you via PM.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[Hal Nail]

Mike,

 

Just come across this. I have been mulling over how to produce a 7mm clay wagon for some years now (I do a lot more thinking than modelling!). Aside from WEP, someone else used to do a brass kit, possibly the BR version - I think it was Meteor - but it had been discontinued long before I started looking. I can't even find any trace of it on-line now.

 

Aside from the issue of the thickness of the sides, the cost and time of building numerous brass kits has been putting me off, especially if the correct brake gear would still need sourcing as well.

 

Whilst the Cooper Craft kits are relatively cheap, if all you are actually using is three sides and the floor, arguably you may as well scratch all four sides once and then mould the whole body? Must admit I've not checked but I assume sourcing suitable underframe parts is not the difficult bit.

 

If the Skytrex thing sells I'd imagine an accurate resin body would as well and presumeably you could use the same original master to do uncovered, original style sheeted and hooded versions as well. Whatever route you go I'd be interested to follow your progress...

 

Cheers

[hmrspaul]

If the Skytrex thing sells I'd imagine an accurate resin body would as well and presumeably you could use the same original master to do uncovered, original style sheeted and hooded versions as well. Whatever route you go I'd be interested to follow your progress...

 

Cheers

 

The Skytrex model is attempting to model a Clayliner. I mentioned these earlier - they were standard wooden bodied, steel framed open merchandise wagons built by all 4 pre-nat companies (late on) and BR. So a normal wagon - 17ft. 6 in. OH 0ft. wb, vacuum braked and many were retrofitted with roller bearings. Accepting the limitations of Skytrex their main problem is that the sheet should lay flat across the wagon, and not be supported on any form of rail. They have produced a standard product in a different form. They were used for long distance transport to Stoke, Kent and, I believe, Aberdeen. The clays and clay hoods were only used locally.

 

Paul Bartlett

[Hal Nail]

The Skytrex model is attempting to model a Clayliner.

 

Paul,

 

Thanks for clarification - I'd misunderstood whilst skim reading earlier.

 

I must admit I'd always assumed that the Skytrex model was supposed to represent a typical "Cornish" clay hood but was merely produced by slapping a hood on a 5 plank open of some description!

 

Anyway if someone comes up with a BR local version (with optional hood, cover or open please ) I'm guessing it would sell a few. Or at least 8 anyway...

 

Hal

[HeavyDuty]

Mike

 

If its only the end door that is causing the problem you could scratchbuild one good end door as a pattern and I would be happy to produce the number you need in resin. I also produce one piece wagon bodies(above the solebar) from 3mm scale through to gauge 1 with no problems. PM me if this sounds interesting.

 

Phil Traxson

Port Wynnstay Models

 

Did anything come out of this?

[djparkins]

I do totally agree with you about the unsuitability of etched brass for open wagons in 7mm.

 

Paul,

 

Well that might depend on how they are designed. We are shortly to release three different planked wagons [including our first two Tubes] that hopefully will answer that criticism.

 

Whilst I fully accept that some etched open wagon kits are way under-thickness I think you might also agree that some of the moulded ones available are a little on the thick side!

 

Correctly designed, you can easily get to scale thickness sides on an etched 7mm kit and keep the kit within a reasonable price range for the customer. Etching also lets you do things that other processes wont - such as fitting and securing the top-capping to the sides in a prototypical manner - same with strapping.

 

Regards,

 

David Parkins,

Modern Motive Power

[HeavyDuty]

David, any chance for a UCV in a future release?

[djparkins]

David, any chance for a UCV in a future release?

 

Hello Heavy Duty - We certainly might look at one in due course but it would be well down the list. Apart from the 15 new kits on our web site that are due out soonish, we have another twenty or so at various stages of work, so would have to finish these first. Will certainly keep it in mind.

 

Regards,

 

David Parkins

[HeavyDuty]

David, that's all I can ask. Thank you!

[hmrspaul]

 

Hello Heavy Duty - We certainly might look at one in due course but it would be well down the list. Apart from the 15 new kits on our web site that are due out soonish, we have another twenty or so at various stages of work, so would have to finish these first. Will certainly keep it in mind.

 

Regards,

 

David Parkins

David

 

A link to your website would be useful, either here or on your personal profile. I like Tubes, although the club layout has deliberately poorly laid track, so long wheelbase wagons are not so good.

 

As to the width of bodies. I still think it will be an interesting struggle to get scale width if you are only using sheet metal. I don't have most of the field drawings of the hundreds of wagons I have measured, but have just looked up the BR Pipe that I do have - the wooden side is 3 inches thick. I don't have calipers, but even the Parkside plastic Pipe side looks a little too thin.

 

I have to admit I don't like etched kits as they require specialist equipment and skills that I don't have. Most of my kit building is done on a beach in the Maldives whilst Julie is diving - not a good place to use a soldering iron. Also I have never understood why there is an expectation that we can all use a soldering iron, or have the time for all of the post soldering cleaning up. I have a metal work GCE O level - but electrical soldering was not seen as being a metal working skill - we did do silver soldering and brazing.

 

Paul Bartlett

[djparkins]

David

 

A link to your website would be useful, either here or on your personal profile. I like Tubes, although the club layout has deliberately poorly laid track, so long wheelbase wagons are not so good.

 

I have to admit I don't like etched kits as they require specialist equipment and skills that I don't have. Most of my kit building is done on a beach in the Maldives whilst Julie is diving - not a good place to use a soldering iron. Also I have never understood why there is an expectation that we can all use a soldering iron, or have the time for all of the post soldering cleaning up.

 

Paul

 

www.djparkins.com

 

I can see that building etched kits is a problem if you don't like etched kits. You have to really want to build them.

 

However, building plastic kits is a problem if you don't like plastic kits [i Cannot stick them myself - no pun intended!]. Anything is a pain if you don't actually want to do it.

 

There is no expectation by us that everyone should have to solder. Our kits really need to be soldered in many places so you would not choose to build our kits if you don't enjoy soldering. If you cannot solder or are not relaxed with it then its best to build plastic kits! I think all etched kit manufacturers are pretty honest and up-front about that.

 

You of all people have probably done more than anyone to put freight stock 'on the map' and to try and get modellers to really understand the details differences between various wagon variants within a type and the reasons for them. So, even if you don't actually like our kits, I hope you will appreciate that with this upcoming series of wagons we are trying to give them the same level of detail that the top of the range locos and coaches get in 7mm. Something they have not really had until now - complete underframes and working leaf springs for example. I would imagine that to be a mission fairly close to your heart.

 

I can quite see why soldering in the Maldives would be a problem! Mind you, if you stay there for a few hundred years you might be able etch your own wagon kits in the sea - if the islands have not vanished through rising sea levels, that is!

 

Regards,

 

David Parkins

[hmrspaul]

 

Paul

 

www.djparkins.com

 

You of all people have probably done more than anyone to put freight stock 'on the map' and to try and get modellers to really understand the details differences between various wagon variants within a type and the reasons for them. So, even if you don't actually like our kits, I hope you will appreciate that with this upcoming series of wagons we are trying to give them the same level of detail that the top of the range locos and coaches get in 7mm. Something they have not really had until now - complete underframes and working leaf springs for example. I would imagine that to be a mission fairly close to your heart.

 

 

Regards,

 

David Parkins

 

David

 

Thanks for the quick response, I have seen your site before and, yes, you do some excellent kits and some of the forthcoming offerings sound very nice - not least as I especially like steel carrying wagons.

 

I keep meaning to work out what the two Slaters POs I have to get some of your interiors sometime. I must try and avoid being on holiday during either Telford or Halifax next year to get some.

 

Regards

 

Paul Bartlett

[Hal Nail]

Hi,

 

Can anybody sugest a kit that is available or a good starting point to convert a kit.

 

 

Any progress on this project?

 

I had a long chat about the Penpoll Quay layout at Langley. They used Cooper Craft kits as a basis for their BR type clay hoods (modelled pre hood, but the same wagon) but removed virtually all the body detail apart from just the non door end (they even reworked the side doors as the BR built strapping is different to the earlier GWR style). Buffers were new and the underframes were completely replaced - mostly ABS or other spares.

 

Personally I could live with the strapping differences but, even so, given the Cooper Craft kit doesn't include wheels and you are hardly using any of it, I can't help thinking you may as well just mass produce scratch built bodies (especially if mostly covered in tarpaulin or hood) and use the Peco BR 9ft underframe kit or maybe use parts from one of the many BR mineral wagon kits.

 

Better still, keep lobbying the kit manufacturers!

[Warspite]

Sorry, but I've only just picked up this thread. I don't think anybody has mentioned the Wagon & Carriage Works etched kit which was their reference WW184 "BR 13T End Door 'China Clay' Wagon". I got one of these a few years ago from Richard at Karlgarin Models. The kit came with both RCH axleboxes and the later Timken roller bearing type although I fitted the earlier axleboxes to mine as I wanted to represent a clayhood of the 1980s. It was my first etched kit so apologies for the faults in building. I painted and weathered it but never got round to putting on transfers or making the hood. Just wish I'd got a few more at the time!