Satan's Goldfish Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I was flicking through an old 'Rail' magazine from the mid-late '90s the other day and i came across an article which mentioned Stagecoach's first venture in to train operations back in 1992. To sum it up, BR decided to stop running seated carriages on a particular overnight sleeper service (can't remember which) and Stagecoach stepped in to try running their carriages attached to the back of the rest of the sleeper service. It failed and the service only ran for about a year before being removed and reverted to just BR sleeping accomodation. Does anyone have information and pictures of the Mk2 carriages used by Stagecoach Rail in 1992 on these services? There was only a small shot of a small part of 1 carriage in the article and the only other picture i can find online is linked below and doesn't show the entire carriages or them attached to sleepers: http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/700000/images/_701118_stagecoachtrain300.jpg From what i've read I think they had 6 Mk2s repainted into their colours and 2 ran attached with the rest of the BR sleeper service. It would be interesting to see full shots of these in service if anyone has any and hopefully i can get enough info (and painting skills or transfers!) to model this service on a couple of old Airfix coaches. Cheers SG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Before fotopic went down there were a couple of photos of a sleeper set at Perth with the Stagecoach Mk2D coaches. Michael Harris' book on the B.R Mk2 coach has a black and white photo of one which appears to show it being painted as there is still masking around the Stagecoach Rail and no number is evident. The Mk2D FOs used had been reclassified to second class, converted to 2 - 2 seating (58 seats in total) and renumbered in the 62xx series. Harris' book says six coaches were repainted but the service only lasted six months before reverting to InterCity. The coach numbers were 6201, 6202, 6210, 6224, 6228 and 6232. Although repainted in InterCity livery in November 1992 it was thought (in the book) that none of the coaches ever worked again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay Country Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 According to British Rail Passenger Trains by Roger Wood, the coaches ran in pairs as part of the Night Aberdonian and had their own hostess service and light breakfast, but Stagecoach was unable to make the service pay and it was taken over by Intercity by the end of 1992. I've never seen these coaches modelled, I reckon they'd make an unusual project. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Amsies Models seem to make a N scale side for these http://www.amsiesmod.../mk2coaches.htm (assuming I got the right ones) And a bit from the Independent http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/bunhill-painting-stagecoach-1454682.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted March 11, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 11, 2011 Amsies Models seem to make a N scale side for these http://www.amsiesmod.../mk2coaches.htm (assuming I got the right ones) Hi all The Stagecoach Night Service.... OK - I have been interested in these particular coaches since introduction of the service. The Amsies offerings could even be partly my artwork as I sent it to him to see if it was possible. They have been modelled in the past - though not very well due to the difficulty (at the time) of getting decals for hte Stagecoach logo done. Which was why I wanted to see if Paul could make some. I even went to Waverley for the first night and got a walkround. Yes - I know what Harris says, but so far I've only found evidence that 2 pairs of coaches were painted into the Stagecoach livery. In addition, what I have found indicates that Flood is correct... After the demise of the service - none of the coaches worked again. I find the bit from theIndependent something not to be sure of. Quote 'In May 1992, Stagecoach launched the UK's first regular privately operated rail service since 1947 on the Aberdeen to London overnight service. Following losses caused in part by retailing difficulties with British Rail, the contract arrangements were renegotiated . . . . End quote I find this bit hilarious! You have to remember that BR had encouraged the service to be introduced as part of showing that 'Open Access' was being introduced, yet they still caused the retail difficulties as the tickets could only be bought through normal BR outlets. There was a report at the time that this was due to BR not advising outlets of the availability of tickets for the service and that it did not appearing on publicity materials. Quote 'And from the latest issue of Railway Magazine, the train-spotter's bible: 'The Stagecoach-liveried MkII coaches, Nos 6201, 02, 10, 24, 28, 32, were in the process of being repainted back into InterCity colours at the beginning of the year. The work was being carried out at Landore depot with the coaches being tripped to and from Swansea on the rear of the remaining loco-hauled service to and from York.' They should just have left the coaches up in Scotland - at least they would have been used! Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 They should just have left the coaches up in Scotland - at least they would have been used! Thanks We were not exactly short of the coaches at the time Phil. Two of them sat in Aberdeen Joint for long enough, BR Unable to use them and Mr Stagecoach refusing to pay for scheduled work already carried out on them. Turned into quite an acrimonious dispute between BR and Stagecoach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 Flood, Clay Country, Bob-65b, Thank you very much for the information. Talltim, thanks for the link to the N Vinyl overlays, first full side shot of seen, looks weird having a carriage that asymetrical in apperance! Scottish Modeller, you seem to be a useful font of knowledge for this topic then I've not done much modelling for a good while now (work gets in the way, don't even have a layout set up, just collecting stock ready for when i have the time and the space) and the variation of 1990's scottish railways is a long way away from darkest rural Norfolk and it's lack of interesting services. Infact i don't think i've ever seen a real sleeper carriage. Where did you manage to get your images from to get the vinyls made up by Amsies? Or were they your own creations? My artistic skills are virtually non-existant and even simply painting a model fills me with dread. So then with relevent pictures in hand it should be possible to talk to a person/company that makes vinyl sides for 00 scale carriages and get something printed off to stick on the side of a RTR Mk2D FO (which i usefully have a couple spare of) and it should be job done? The next question then is what was the rest of Night Aberdonian typically made up from in 1992? I'm guessing Mk3 sleepers and a Mk1 BG in Intercity Executive or Swallow, but how many? Cheers again guys SG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted March 13, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 13, 2011 Scottish Modeller, you seem to be a useful font of knowledge for this topic then I've not done much modelling for a good while now (work gets in the way, don't even have a layout set up, just collecting stock ready for when i have the time and the space) and the variation of 1990's scottish railways is a long way away from darkest rural Norfolk and it's lack of interesting services. Infact i don't think i've ever seen a real sleeper carriage. Where did you manage to get your images from to get the vinyls made up by Amsies? Or were they your own creations? My artistic skills are virtually non-existant and even simply painting a model fills me with dread. HI SG, My starting point was an article in Rail Enthusiast that showed the coaches prior to entering service and whilst still being painted. Some time ago - (way back in time) I had the idea that it might be possible to create full side decals for coaches, after all - aircraft modellers had been using them for years! I let the modelling press know what I was trying to do and received a lot of interest. I also had interest from some decal makers but none of them could quite get it right! So I gave up on that. I had some interest from Adam at Electragraphics and supplied the various bits of artwork I had done for the Caledonian Sleeper coaches to see what he could do. I then also had some interest from Paul who produces Amsies Overlays. Frank from Scale Model Transfers was also interested and he produced some samples for me in 4mm. Unfortunately the technology for printing was not up to it at the time and we decided not to pursue the idea. I also let them know about some of the other stuff I was looking at and included artwork at the stage I was by that time. Anyway... All the artwork was initially produced from scanned photos of the coaches that I then recreated in MS Paint as bmp files - they were a bit large! See attached flyer/instruction doc for that bit. These were all sized to fit the original Hurst etches which were intended to overlay Lima coaches. These etches (when available) have now been changed so that they fit the Airfix/GMR/Dapol/Hornby MK2d coaches. So then with relevent pictures in hand it should be possible to talk to a person/company that makes vinyl sides for 00 scale carriages and get something printed off to stick on the side of a RTR Mk2D FO (which i usefully have a couple spare of) and it should be job done? Yes - you could do it this way - it's the same way as I first started. But first of all I suggest you contact Paul at Amsies Overlays and see if it is possible to enlarge the N scale ones to 4mm. No point in making more work if part of it has already been done and just needs rescaling! The next question then is what was the rest of Night Aberdonian typically made up from in 1992? I'm guessing Mk3 sleepers and a Mk1 BG in Intercity Executive or Swallow, but how many? Composition of the train varied according to demand which, in turn varied by the day and season of year. Flood and Bob-65B can probably be more precise. On the first night of service - there was a full trainload - 11 carriages if I remember correctly. Hope this helps! If you want examples of the artwork - roughs ie not finished stuff! Email me directly. Thanks Caledonian Sleeper Instructions.doc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 Scottish Modeller, that's brilliant, thank you. i'll get a request off to Paul at Amsies and see what he says. They do 00 vinyls too so hopefully it should be easy enough scale up. I'm assuming from looking at the picture i found that the livery was left or right handed on each side and the pair would run as a 'mirror' of each other? It would look a little odd otherwise. SG Edit: Excuse the rather 'noob' question here, but just checking the compatibility of Amsies Vinyls with what i already have and is the Airfix Mk2D is essentially a Dapol model now but just really old? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 1992 is too late for the era I'm modelling. The photos at Perth on fotopic had the Euston to Aberdeen train with double head 37s (all sorts of liveries, including three tone grey and dutch). If I was going to take a guess I'd go for a BG at the rear, then the two Stagecoach coaches, about eight Mk3a sleepers (mixture of SLE and SLEP) then about three or four Motorail GUVs on the front. Can't be any more precise than that guess at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted March 13, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 13, 2011 Hi SG, No problem... Scottish Modeller, that's brilliant, thank you. i'll get a request off to Paul at Amsies and see what he says. They do 00 vinyls too so hopefully it should be easy enough scale up. I'm assuming from looking at the picture i found that the livery was left or right handed on each side and the pair would run as a 'mirror' of each other? It would look a little odd otherwise. Correct - they ran a pairs with left and right hand versions to mirror the look. Edit: Excuse the rather 'noob' question here, but just checking the compatibility of Amsies Vinyls with what i already have and is the Airfix Mk2D is essentially a Dapol model now but just really old? This is why I put the Airfix/GMR/Dapol/Hornby MK2d coaches in the message. They are the same coaches - just the Hornby ones (may) have come off the moulf a lot more recently. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhite01 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I saw 2 workings with these vehicles both at Crewe... arr 00:24 and dept at 00:32.. northbound workings 8th July 1992:- 90xxx+96155+96193+96159+92946+6210+6201+10709+10555+10723+6702+10516+10675+10536+10711+10714+10520 9th July 1992:- 90xxx+96164+96189+96110+92901+6232+6202+10697+10506+10691+6704+10515+10688+10731+10562+10542+10663 Was viewing parcel/TPO workings at the time so the Sleeper Services were a welcome break. I do remember the distinctive livery and may have aphoto somewhere... I will look. Hope of interest, Steve W Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted March 13, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 13, 2011 I saw 2 workings with these vehicles both at Crewe... arr 00:24 and dept at 00:32.. northbound workings 8th July 1992:- 90xxx+96155+96193+96159+92946+6210+6201+10709+10555+10723+6702+10516+10675+10536+10711+10714+10520 9th July 1992:- 90xxx+96164+96189+96110+92901+6232+6202+10697+10506+10691+6704+10515+10688+10731+10562+10542+10663 Was viewing parcel/TPO workings at the time so the Sleeper Services were a welcome break. I do remember the distinctive livery and may have aphoto somewhere... I will look. Hope of interest, Steve W Hi Steve, Very interesting! If you have photos - even more so! Every picture found represents an 8% increase over the ones I have found since 1992. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted March 13, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 13, 2011 I agree with the comments above regarding the vehicles and history of the service. BR was effectively forced into this early "open access" arrangement but was not forced to offer any form of commercial support and stories circulated about it intentionally being made difficult to find out about and book the seated service. Brian Souter, of Stagecoach fame, had at that time an extensive network of deregulated overnight coaches operating between London and Scotland and saw this as a logical extension and upgrading to his operation. The 62xx coaches had been converted some years previously and were not converted simply for this job. Others of the batch, which has had a chequered history from new, ended up working the seated portion of BR / GWT "Night Riviera" (as part of the BR train, never as a separate operation as on the Aberdeen run) in the days when the seats from that train formed a daytime Paddington - Manchester round trip rather than resting at Old Oak all day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted March 13, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 13, 2011 I agree with the comments above regarding the vehicles and history of the service. BR was effectively forced into this early "open access" arrangement but was not forced to offer any form of commercial support and stories circulated about it intentionally being made difficult to find out about and book the seated service. Brian Souter, of Stagecoach fame, had at that time an extensive network of deregulated overnight coaches operating between London and Scotland and saw this as a logical extension and upgrading to his operation. The 62xx coaches had been converted some years previously and were not converted simply for this job. Others of the batch, which has had a chequered history from new, ended up working the seated portion of BR / GWT "Night Riviera" (as part of the BR train, never as a separate operation as on the Aberdeen run) in the days when the seats from that train formed a daytime Paddington - Manchester round trip rather than resting at Old Oak all day. HI Gwiver, Thanks for the comments... Specifically... 'Others of the batch, which has had a chequered history from new, ended up working the seated portion of BR / GWT "Night Riviera" (as part of the BR train, never as a separate operation as on the Aberdeen run) in the days when the seats from that train formed a daytime Paddington - Manchester round trip rather than resting at Old Oak all day.' That would explain why I only ever saw 2 pairs of the coaches up here! Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Apart from missing out the lounge first (67xx series) and being one sleeper short I got the rake about right! Not bad for a bit of thoughtful guess work. I could have sworn that the Stagecoach coaches were at the back in the Perth photos but I wasn't taking much interest in them at the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted March 14, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 14, 2011 Two observations would suggest that the Stagecoach vehicles were formed mid-train for at least a part of the life of the service. If they were "at the back in the Perth photos" was this at the London or Aberdeen end? They could have been marshalled at the London end at one time but at the Aberdeen end by the time the Crewe observations were made. The Motorail vans would be shunted from the loading dock at Euston onto the Aberdeen end just before departure and detached on arrival so perhaps the formation was changed at some point. Equally the Motorails might have come off before Perth or been shunted to the other end of the train for some reason. Loading wouldn't have been a problem; single 47's were rostered for the 16-vehicle Royal Highlander up the hill from Inverness; the Aberdeen road is not quite that severe! I wouldn't put it past BR management at the time to have decided they should be at the back so as to not interrupt the standard IC livery and then at the front (i.e. mid-train once the Motorails were on) to make Stagecoach passengers walk farther from the Euston barrier line! Either or both could be typical decisions of the time. While I do remember the operation I don't recall ever having seen the trains as they commenced shortly after I left railway service and moved back to Cornwall. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Hi Everyone, A bit like this ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Nice Brian. Should have realised that you'll have done some of these already. Gwiwer, I think the photos had the coaches at the London end of a Northbound service so as you say the formations might have changed over time. When fotopic returns I'll find the link to the photos Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 And I miss so much when days at work are called for! Brilliant Infromation thanks everyone. Really must get that email off to amsies.... 1992 is too late for the era I'm modelling. The photos at Perth on fotopic had the Euston to Aberdeen train with double head 37s (all sorts of liveries, including three tone grey and dutch). If I was going to take a guess I'd go for a BG at the rear, then the two Stagecoach coaches, about eight Mk3a sleepers (mixture of SLE and SLEP) then about three or four Motorail GUVs on the front. Can't be any more precise than that guess at the moment. So was this service run by a pair of 37s all the way from Euston or did they take over North of the border from something electric like 86/87/90? Hi SG, No problem... Correct - they ran a pairs with left and right hand versions to mirror the look. This is why I put the Airfix/GMR/Dapol/Hornby MK2d coaches in the message. They are the same coaches - just the Hornby ones (may) have come off the moulf a lot more recently. Thanks Cheers SM. Sorry i must have somehow over looked that. I'm still left sceptical on properly trusting some models ever since i found out all the Hornby MK3s I collected when i was young weren't scale length! I saw 2 workings with these vehicles both at Crewe... arr 00:24 and dept at 00:32.. northbound workings 8th July 1992:- 90xxx+96155+96193+96159+92946+6210+6201+10709+10555+10723+6702+10516+10675+10536+10711+10714+10520 9th July 1992:- 90xxx+96164+96189+96110+92901+6232+6202+10697+10506+10691+6704+10515+10688+10731+10562+10542+10663 Was viewing parcel/TPO workings at the time so the Sleeper Services were a welcome break. I do remember the distinctive livery and may have aphoto somewhere... I will look. Hope of interest, Steve W Very much of interest, i think some modelling compression may be required however! Just to help me decypher the coaching stock codes (another of my not very strong points ), i'm assuming 96xxx are motorrail vans, 92xxx are MK1BGs, and 10xxx are MK3 Sleepers. So what would 90xxx be? and is 67xx another MK2 FO but BR rather than stagecoach? Looking forward to seeing a photo if you can find it Thanks Hi Everyone, A bit like this ? Yep, just like that! Smashing! Painted i pressume? Any shots 'in use'? Nice Brian. Should have realised that you'll have done some of these already. Gwiwer, I think the photos had the coaches at the London end of a Northbound service so as you say the formations might have changed over time. When fotopic returns I'll find the link to the photos Fotopic isn't something i often use, is there a chance of the link coming back? Thanks again everyone, really useful stuff. SG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 So was this service run by a pair of 37s all the way from Euston or did they take over North of the border from something electric like 86/87/90? Fotopic isn't something i often use, is there a chance of the link coming back? SG I'm pretty sure that the 37s would have only be attached at Mossend, the rake would have had an electric loco south of there. I've used Fotopic constantly for the last two years but for the last week or so it has been down completely. Nobody knows what is happening so I'm just going to hope it returns at some time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 If anyone is interested, here are some close-up pics. The main livery is painted, the slogans were done with drawing pens. I originally divided up the letters into equally spaced boxes, but ended up with the patron saint "ST AGECOACH". I learnt the lesson that "T"s and "A"s have to be closer together, so i had another bash. I only did this livery on one side of each (that was enough!), the other sides were painted in Inter City Executive livery (as shown). The new windows were cut from tinted acetate. The trouble is, these are too modern for me now, when i have the time i will repaint them blue/grey. Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulH37 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 "The coach numbers were 6201, 6202, 6210, 6224, 6228 and 6232. Although repainted in InterCity livery in November 1992 it was thought (in the book) that none of the coaches ever worked again." Just a little more history on these vehicles, as my career has crossed paths with these vehicles a few times over the years. They were all used after the Stagecoach service ceased; all six were tranferred to the WCML Intercity pool based at Wembley and still saw use on sleeper trains. A couple of them spent some time in the charter pool working from Bounds Green. By the mid-late 90's, they were in quite a state, requiring major bodywork repairs and refurbishment and only 6202 carried on in front-line service, ending up on FGW's books. The other five vehicles were stored at either Kineton or Long Marston MOD sites. 6202 was used on the Great Western Sleeper service until ousted by Mark 3's in around 2004. It was in store at Kineton in 2005 and was cut up at Caerwent in 2006/7. 6224 (3195), 6228 (3201) and 6232 (3199) spent the remainder of the 90's in store, but were purchased by Auckland Regional Council in 2000 and exported to New Zealand where they were converted into suburban rolling stock, 6232 becoming a driving trailer. 6201 and 6210 were used as a source of spares for the New Zealand vehicles before being scrapped, I think in 2001. Paul. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted March 15, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 15, 2011 Hi Everyone, A bit like this ? Hi Brian, Good looking pair of coaches! Can I ask how you did the Stagecoach RAIL logo? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Hi Phil, The logos on the doors were done using the same body colour paints, so that everything matched. The design was then sharpened up using white drawing ink. Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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