21t MDV mineral wagons - Finelines

[Southernman46]

Hi All,

 

 

Having built 20 odd of these fine kits - I now am at the painting stage and both from memory and photos it appears that the prototype wagons weathered to a very odd colour brown that is neither bauxite or any of the rust colours available.

 

Has anyone out there already matched this colour or have superior knowledge of the various paint ranges and some idea regarding a suitable paint colour please ?

 

Many thanks,

 

SM46

[Adam]

Am I missing the point (very possible)? Are you talking a base colour for weathering? Or a colour to simulate the effect?

 

It depends exactly when you're modelling of course - the bauxite these wagons were delivered in and retained until repainted in the late '60s weathered totally differently to the brown (Freight Brown is it?) they later had. Compare this shot to this one. Of course, all over rust might be more typical in their later years and a coat of a single colour won't cut it.

 

If you're after the faded brown then perhaps letting down the appropriate Railmatch/Precision colour with some white (or Humbrol Brick Red, no. 70?) might be about right. Perhaps Tamiya XF9 'Hull Red' might be worth experimenting with? Experiment, however, is the key word.

 

My attempts (over the top of Halfords red oxide primer), for what they are worth, can be found by following this link.

 

Adam

[Pennine MC]

... it appears that the prototype wagons weathered to a very odd colour brown that is neither bauxite or any of the rust colours available.

 

Has anyone out there already matched this colour or have superior knowledge of the various paint ranges and some idea regarding a suitable paint colour please ?

 

 

This effect is visible on other steel coal wagons including 16 tonners and 21T hops, but as you say it is very much associated with the MDVs. I suspect it's because very few of them got a repaint between their relatively late build date and their declining days in the late 70s and 80s. You wont (IMHO) get a convincing finish like that out of a tin (not one tin, anyway), and certainly not one described as light rust, dark rust or second-Tuesday-of-the-month-and-it's-been-raining rust for that matter.

 

As a base coat, I would be applying a mix of a darkish brown (like the late lamented Humbrol Brown Bess or Revell 84) with black. That would then be built up, semi-randomly and in stages, with subtle variations of that shade, plus others, either drybrushed or smeared. Dark earth can be useful, as can 'conventional' rust colours - but only in *very* small amounts. This is very much an intuitive process, you dont say what weathering experience you have but I wouldnt recommend it for a first attempt. Localised patch painting with 'bauxite' (sic) particularly on the lower panels or under lettering, can be used to add to a scruffy effect but looks best if it's again blended in with a weathering wash.

[Pennine MC]

Thinking about another model earlier today reminded me of this query, obviously it's yet another example of an OP not returning to acknowledge replies (or indeed to give the confirmation requested by the other respondent, above my post), but that isnt really my angle here. I've always worked to the principle that a query thread is here for anyone's benefit, not just those directly involved, and this one has (at present) had 140-odd reads.

 

Now I know that 140 wont all be unique visits, but it does indicate that quite a few folk found it of interest in some way before it inevitably slid down the board (it was on page 7 before I bumped it with this). So pondering, as I often do, on the effectiveness of the forum and the Net generally when it comes to communicating information of this nature, I wonder if any of those other readers would like to comment on the replies given? They did take some time to put together on both my part and Adam's; has that time been spent in a generally useful direction, or is it the case that the techniques cited in response to the query are perhaps not as simple as some might hope for?

 

Any responses appreciated, this is a genuine query

[The Stationmaster]

As far as I'm concerned a link to this page is saved in what Safari calls 'bookmarks' and AOL more appositely refers to as 'favourites' because it might one day be of use to me 9although I suspect MDVs won't be present in particularly large numbers when I get round to 'developing' the wagon fleet and start getting my stock of various kits and 'do-upable' RTR along the into and 'clearly in' traffic mode.

 

So yes Ian stuff like this is always useful and - if not being grabbed immediately in my case - is being squirrelled away where i can readily find it (I hope). In fact it's so helpful I find that I've saved it twice (an age thing you'll understand).

[Kenton]

I'm happy to respond - as one of those "readers" also as someone who is acknowledged as totally ignorant, in every sense of the word, when it comes to matters "weathering", indeed preferring the coward's approach of leaving everything in out-shopped or bare metal condition.

 

But that doesn't stop me appreciating the expert's advice (as demonstrated by many an example) on such matters. As one day I just might get the urge and wish to make use of the advice given. It is my opinion that weathering in the hands of a master is really subtle and an art form whereas many attempt I see are simply an eye sore and look dreadful. The trouble is that I think everyone has to start somewhere possibly even me.

 

I would probably agree with you (oh not again!) that the 16t/21t or hopper is not the best article to start on. The basic state of these as seen in photos of the prototype show just how varied and unsubtle they actually were, getting that right, yet toned down due to the scaling effect will be possibly the most challenging "weathering" task.

 

Is there a Group yet on "weathering" techniques and secrets? rather than one of a collection of people's attempts at learning the craft.

[Ian Smeeton]

As a general lurker with lttle to say, but lots to read, I suppose that I look on RMweb as the digital equivalent of the Toddler , Hornby magazine MRJ and others, and as a confirmed armchair modeller, I rarely raise my head over the parapet, let alone write/post in

 

However, almost every post that I read is of interest, quietly filling corners of my mind with ideas and techniques, places to look for inspiration and downright theft of others work.

 

Along with the toddler et al. I rarely write to express an opinion, in fact, Never.

 

140 views is in itself an accolade, without a surge of 'I'd do it his way rather than wot e said' type posts.

 

Lots out here in (non) modelling land take up the suggestions and ideas without putting fingers to keyboard/pen to paper, which may seem ungrateful to the OP or those who take the time and trouble to research an answer,.

 

I am starting to feel bad now that the OP has not replied to the answers given and should I be defending his RMweb digital honour?

 

Regards

 

Ian

[kevinlms]

I'm happy to respond - as one of those "readers" also as someone who is acknowledged as totally ignorant, in every sense of the word, when it comes to matters "weathering", indeed preferring the coward's approach of leaving everything in out-shopped or bare metal condition.

 

But that doesn't stop me appreciating the expert's advice (as demonstrated by many an example) on such matters. As one day I just might get the urge and wish to make use of the advice given. It is my opinion that weathering in the hands of a master is really subtle and an art form whereas many attempt I see are simply an eye sore and look dreadful. The trouble is that I think everyone has to start somewhere possibly even me.

 

I would probably agree with you (oh not again!) that the 16t/21t or hopper is not the best article to start on. The basic state of these as seen in photos of the prototype show just how varied and unsubtle they actually were, getting that right, yet toned down due to the scaling effect will be possibly the most challenging "weathering" task.

 

Is there a Group yet on "weathering" techniques and secrets? rather than one of a collection of people's attempts at learning the craft.

 

Is a Group necessary? Under the Skills & Knowledge section, there is a sub forum called Weathering, Paint & Transfers, which should be a location where you would expect such articles to be?.

 

Or is it expected that all common topics (of which "weathering" is surely going to be popular?) are to be changed to Groups now? Then again, should weathering be split into 'normal' workday appearance for stuff up to say 8-12 years service and the 'rust bucket' appearance of older items, that are almost due for scrapping?

 

Just wondering what the eventual planned outcome of the Groups is? I like the concept of the groups, but some topics belong under their present Menu structure, I think.

 

 

 

Kevin Martin

[Pennine MC]

Is a Group necessary? Under the Skills & Knowledge section, there is a sub forum called Weathering, Paint & Transfers, which should be a location where you would expect such articles to be?.

 

 

I think Kenton's point is a subtle one, that he feels the current area is populated more by the novice weatherer showing his efforts than the more experienced sharing knowledge. Whether that's actually so, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing and how you'd police it anyway, I wouldnt like to say. At the mo, I'm just getting a feel for how folk are thinking, a free debate with any relevant tangents is quite welcome.

 

I do have one observation though; often such a thread attracts comments from members who are less experienced than the tyro OP, but think the work is wonderful. A more experienced worker, who might have constructive criticism to add, could then be reluctant to be seen as a naysayer.

 

Lots out here in (non) modelling land take up the suggestions and ideas without putting fingers to keyboard/pen to paper, which may seem ungrateful to the OP or those who take the time and trouble to research an answer,.

 

I am starting to feel bad now that the OP has not replied to the answers given and should I be defending his RMweb digital honour?

 

My own view FWIW is that you shouldnt, if you dont know the circumstances of their non-reply. Trying to be charitable, I just got the impression that the replies weren't quite the one shot wonder technique that was perhaps hoped for and he'd gone off the idea.

 

But as I said, this wasn't intended to be another thread about manners and I dont want it to turn into one. It's a common misconception that respondents want 'accolades' (to use your word), but that really, really is not the point - as someone who does likes to pass on his experience*, it's good to know if it's being passed on effectively and in doing that, I'm looking more for feedback on whether a response has been accurately targeted.

 

Thanks all for the answers so far, this could be an interesting debate

 

* There may be a Mellow Mike angle to this later

[Jamie]

I would have assumed that a lack of follow up questions mean the answer sought has been given. "Netiquette" of a click on the thank-you button or a post to that effect is still a foreign concept to many.

 

I find that aspect really frustrating, but not much can be done.

 

 

As to usefulness - well subconsciously it will have been added to my reference store, despite my modelled period probably being a bit early for heavy heavy degradation of steel minerals.

 

often such a thread attracts comments from members who are less experienced ..., but think the work is wonderful. A more experienced worker, who might have constructive criticism to add, could then be reluctant to be seen as a naysayer.

The "Emperor's New Clothes" effect? That always pricks up my insecurities.

 

Personally, I think a group for that subject is a bit tough. Do you make it an elite group, and where do you draw the line on competency? If you don't, then aren't you just left with the status quo - only in a different subforum.

[Kenton]

Just to add on the matter of a Group - I was thinking more of a techniques library rather than a general area for everyone to show off their examples of applying the technique. I don't think that is "elite" but is an area of agreed competence. An area for new tested ideas and tricks as opposed to "look what I have done" using that technique.

 

I think the Skills & Knowledge sub forum started with this intent but I think it has now been overwhelmed by a mass of "my first attempt at weathering" type posts which do need to be somewhere but perhaps not mixed up with the real "training" content?