Geoff Endacott Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Can anyone help with photos or references for shunters which were based on the SR in South London (ideally Hither Green or Feltham) circa 1967? We need a shunter for Elm Park and I want to get the details right. There are so many detail and livery differences within the 08 and 09 fleets that the only way to be sure of getting things right is to work from photos. The touble is, I can't find very many. It seems that everyone at the time was concentrating on the last vestiges of steam and ignoring the humble Gronks. Thanks in advance. Geoff Endacott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Hi Geoff, I hope the following list is of use. It is taken from the series of "Allocation History of BR Diesels and Electrics" books by Roger Harris.I know it is not photos as you asked for but hopefully being able to identify suitable locos will help in knowing what locos to track down photos of. Details of the various fittings from new applied to the 08 and 09 locos are detailed in Steve Jordan's "BR Standard Diesel Electric Shunters in Colour." In addition to Feltham and Hither Green I have taken the liberty of including Selhurst shunters as I think Elm Park is in the same locality. Only locos that were allocated to the selected depot during 1967 are included. Some locos were moved between the selected depots but this should become easily apparent from the listed dates. 70B Feltham Class 08 D3040 30/1/54- 12/68 (was stored unserviceable 6/10/68 to 12/68) (09028) D3042 5/65- 1/69 (08030) D3044 7/62- 7/68 (08032 later Yeoman 33) D3045 6/62- 9/68 (nil) D3047 7/62- 1/69 (08034 alloc but went to Liberia instead) D3048 7/67- 6/69 (08035) D3221 8/66- 11/66, 7/67- 12/68 (08153) D3272 12/62- 6/69 (08202 now at Potter Group, Ely) D3273 12/62- 6/69 (08203 later 08991) D3274 12/62- 6/69 (08204) D3459 12/62- 8/70 (08374) D3460 12/62- 6/68 (08375) Class 09 D4100 7/67- 8/70 (09012) D4101 7/67- 1/68 (09013) D4102 7/67- 8/70 (09014) 73C Hither Green Class 03 D2042 10/67- 6/69 (nil) D2083 2/62- 7/67 (nil) Class 04 D2252 12/64- 10/68 D2257 7/67- 5/68 Class 08 D3043 10/64- 10/72 (08031) D3092 11/62- 10/72 (export to Liberia) D3097 4/55- 5/72 (nil) D3224 9/68- 6/69 (08156) D3465 11/63- 7/67 (08380) D3466 2/62- 7/76 (08381) D3471 1/66- 10/68 (08386) D3472 10/57- 7/67 (08387) Class 09 D3665 7/67- 5/73 (09001) D3671 7/67- 5/73 (09007) D3719 11/63- 4/72 (09008) D3721 11/63- 12/80 (09010) D4099 11/63- 9/68 (09011) D4100 1/66- 7/67 (09012) D4103 10/64- 3/68 (09015) Class 12 15212 4/62- 12/71 15213 1/62- 11/68 15214 2/62- 1/71 15215 7/62- 3/68 15217 4/60- 8/70 15218 2/55- 1/70 15220 10/64- 10/71 15222 10/64- 10/71 15229 7/63- 10/71 75C Selhurst Class 04 D2254 9/66- 6/67 D2289 9/66-12/67 Class 08 D3224 9/66- 9/68 (08156) D3225 9/66- 9/68 (08157) D3461 9/66- 1/82 (08376) D3462 9/66- 12/68 (08377) D3463 9/66- 1/74 (08378) D3464 9/66- 12/80 (08379) D3469 9/66- 1/82 (08384) Class 09 D3666 6/64- 9/70 (09002) D3667 6/64- 10/95 (09003) D3720 11/59- 10/95 (09009) D4104 11/61- 7/68 (09016) Class 12 15211 9/66- 12/71 15224 9/62- 10/71 15225 9/66- 10/71 15229 7/63- 10/71 Apologies for the length of this reply but I hope that the information contained within is of some interest/use. EDIT: I have added any TOPS numbers in brackets in case they help you in finding a picture of a specific loco. Some of these locos have either gone into industry or been preserved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Endacott Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 Thanks for that Natalie - very helpful. The 08/09 option is probably the easiest using the Bachmann or Hornby model. Now all I need are photos of one or more from your list to check detail differences and livery details. Geoff Endacott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Thanks for that Natalie - very helpful. The 08/09 option is probably the easiest using the Bachmann or Hornby model. Now all I need are photos of one or more from your list to check detail differences and livery details. Geoff Endacott There are a number of ways to solve that problem! I do have some pics (not my own as my year of birth encompasses the time period you are requesting..) of Southern based shunters 1967/68 as that is my intended era too. Some of the early blue repaints I think are on the list above- D3464 being one of those- noted at Eastleigh in September 1966 in blue with blue buffer beams and double arrow on cabside above number. I'll take a look in my shunter books to see what details (as in marker lights, lamp brackets, cab doors, equipment cases, air brake fitment, hinged bonnet doors that sort of thing) apply to the locos in the list and report back. I shall take a look at the books I have too to see if there is anything of use. My preferred option would be for you to use an 04- all Southerned up with extra marker lights of course- as they rarely feature on Southern layouts but it is your layout and hence your choice! Does your chosen shunter need to have any specifics regarding train brakes- ie does it need to be vac only or dual braked? The dual braked ones at the time I think were fairly new conversions (to include the air brake) and generally concerned with shunting coaching stock and emus- hence the fitting (at about this time too) of the high level duplicate air pipes. Should you also choose to go the route of a Bulleid class 12 shunter I assume that you are aware of their significant difference compared to their BR designed counterparts? I believe a kit is under development for one of the pre-BR 350hp shunters to encompass the LMS, GWR, SR, and WD flavours. Incidentally I having seen Elm Park at both Warley (where it was behind the SRS stand I was on) and at RMWeb Member Day at Taunton and enjoyed it immensely I think you need one more signal! I could not make up my mind if the single line was essentially a long siding (ie no passengers). The fact that a dolly is provided to come off the single line suggests siding - however the lack of trap points from the single line suggest passenger. If so then you need to provide a full sized home signal (be it semaphore or colour light) with potentially an off scene banner repeater on the approach the other side of the bridge hiding the fiddle yard. I do realise that the layout was not built by yourselves so the addition of trap points might prove difficult. I hope that you'll take the above in the constructive manner that they are intended and I look forward to following the fortunes of this excellent layout in the future. Just love that ARP box! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 this any good? http://www.flickr.com/photos/24041160@N02/4837853873/in/photostream Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushVeteran Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Here are a couple of photos that may be of assistance Geoff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Endacott Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 Now that certainly is useful. D3045 seems an obvous candidate. Thanks BV. Geoff Endacott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted May 27, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 27, 2011 Incidentally I having seen Elm Park at both Warley (where it was behind the SRS stand I was on) and at RMWeb Member Day at Taunton and enjoyed it immensely I think you need one more signal! I could not make up my mind if the single line was essentially a long siding (ie no passengers). The fact that a dolly is provided to come off the single line suggests siding - however the lack of trap points from the single line suggest passenger. If so then you need to provide a full sized home signal (be it semaphore or colour light) with potentially an off scene banner repeater on the approach the other side of the bridge hiding the fiddle yard. I do realise that the layout was not built by yourselves so the addition of trap points might prove difficult. Typically useful response, Natalie, but one small item of local vernacular needs addressing! In Southern-speak we generally talk of ground signals as "dummies" rather than the "dolly" or "Tommy Dod" of railways north of the river. Incidentally, the last Manager at Bricklayers Arms depot was actually called Tommy Dodd! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Endacott Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 I think you need one more signal! I could not make up my mind if the single line was essentially a long siding (ie no passengers). It is a through route for freight only. Passenger trains terminate at Elm Park. Therefore we probably do need a trap point. Geoff Endacott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Now that certainly is useful. D3045 seems an obvious candidate. Thanks BV. Geoff Endacott D3045 in your chosen period was a Feltham loco- ie allocated to the South Western Division. Forgive me if I'm wrong but wouldn't Elm Park be on the South Eastern Division (based on the fact that the location is ostensibly Addiscombe assuming that I can remember the info on your excellent display- including the OS Map!!) so the loco provided is likely to have come from Hither Green? I think the Feltham locos would have primarily been used for working Feltham Yard and the surrounding area. I know how keen you are to get details correct (witness your fleet of Warships on Somercombe- name?) so I trust you aren't offended by my comments. Anyways I shall post the details of the body fittings to this locos for you to aid you in your search! Incidentally I have some photos of various shunters and other Southern based locos during this wonderful period that I have gathered off the net (a lot off fotopic) which I can't post here but will gladly send you copies of. These include 33s in various flavours of yellow ends on their mostly green livery and 73s- some of the 73/0 were still in green (sometimes without yellow ends) but I don't think the 73/1s had started to receive full yellow ends on their original rail blue with small yellow panels yet- apart from the one notable exception E6018 which was fitted with wrap-round full yellow ends (as far as but not including the ends). Although difficult to tell from photos I assume that these were applied without a body repaint which means that the grey roof was retained. It lasted in this condition until mid 1969 I recall. Any other help that can give with any aspect of this layout or stock then please let me know and I'll be happy to oblige. I can do you a list of SR electric and diesle units that deals with the transition from green to blue- including those with green and full yellow ends and those blue with small yellow panels. If anybody else would like a copy then please me know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 It is a through route for freight only. Passenger trains terminate at Elm Park. Therefore we probably do need a trap point. Geoff Endacott By through can I assume it is not a dead end at the other end of the route? If so then you would still need a home signal in addition to the trap point. If the freight route is essentially a long dead end siding then a dummy (I know them as this as well- typical of me to pick the wrong name!) is still required in addition to the trap. Another thought- your starter signal (outside the box) on the end of the platform may require a shunt ahead subsidiary under the arm to allow trains to draw froward onto the single line so that they can cross over. I think by 1967 ringed arms on the Southern had been removed. Finally as the line changes in status from passenger to freight it is possible that the main starter arm would be fixed at danger and a more restrictive signal provided if it applied into essentially a long siding. I shall check my diagrams to see what I can come up with! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 I believe a kit is under development for one of the pre-BR 350hp shunters to encompass the LMS, GWR, SR, and WD flavours. Ooo, interesting. I always thought that would be an obvious thing to do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Pannier Tank Posted May 28, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 28, 2011 Typically useful response, Natalie, but one small item of local vernacular needs addressing! In Southern-speak we generally talk of ground signals as "dummies" rather than the "dolly" or "Tommy Dod" of railways north of the river. Incidentally, the last Manager at Bricklayers Arms depot was actually called Tommy Dodd! Also known as 'Dummies' up here in Bletchley LMR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted May 28, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 28, 2011 Also known as 'Dummies' up here in Bletchley LMR. Gosh! The last place I did anything "meaningful" in my career was project-managing the building of Silverlink's office suite and control at Bletchley, no doubt derelict since others took the franchise! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Mike Edge does the English Electric LMS/GWR to BR MR 12xxx class and WR 15xxx http://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/judithedge/kit/135 Golden Arrow does the Maunsell Southern loco http://www.goldenarrow.me.uk/products.htm Unfortunately the English Electric shunter referred to is the earlier type to the examples that appeared on the Southern. The type I am referring to looks essentially like an 08/09/10 but has a shallower roof profile amongst other detail differences. The Maunsell shunter would not have reached the time period in question all three being withdrawn c1962. Shame as they are nice locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Some very useful info here. Thanks Natalie. I must get around to renumbering my 03s, 04s and 08s in particular. I also have a couple of 09s but they should already be SR locos anyway! I would be very interested in your list of green locos with the various treatments as I have been slowly compiling something similar, which is still very incomplete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 I also have a couple of 09s but they should already be SR locos anyway! I would be very interested in your list of green locos with the various treatments as I have been slowly compiling something similar, which is still very incomplete. Remember that the 09 locos were not all based on the Southern The Midland had a fair few as well before they were all concentrated on the SR in later years. My list of green with various treatments is actually of electric and diesel electric multiple units rather than locos. Russell Saxton did a good article on green locos with full yellow ends in an issue of Railways Illustrated last year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Endacott Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 The need for an Elm Park shunter may soon be academic. The layout has no bookings after Calne on 21 & 22 January. The layout may therefore be: a. Retired. b. Sold (subject to a suitable offer being received). c. Converted to OO gauge. We will, however, need a shunter for Burntwood Lane - the club's new EM gauge layout which is set on the Caterham branch in the late 1960s. Geoff Endacott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.