4-Wheel and Clerestory Coaches: how long were they in service?

[AndrewN]

Hello everyone!

 

I am in the process of planning a layout representing a small branch terminus set in the early 1930s. But due to the small size, I was hoping to use smaller coaches, either 4-wheelers or clerestories. But that said, were these coaches still used in revenue service the early 1930s, or had they been already scrapped/relegated to engineering or workmans trains?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

[chrisf]

A very few 4-wheelers hung on till the end of 1952 on the Burry Port and Gwendraeth Valley line. They were used to convey colliers and were not upholstered. Some of them managed to get a coat of crimson paint at the end of their lives.

 

In the early 30s the B sets that we know and love were replacing sets of four wheelers on country lines but I doubt that the change was made overnight.

 

Chris

 

PS: I'm sure that at least one bogie clerestory coach lasted long enough to get a coat of crimson too.

[Adrian Wintle]

In the early 1930s there were sill a lot of the 46' clerestory coaches (C10 and the like) in service, even on main line trains, so a branch train of a couple of them would not be out of place. This is the size of the ex-Triang clerestories (which don't represent any particular prototype) or the Slaters kits (which do).

 

Adrian

[AndrewN]

Thanks for all the info. Does anyone know if 4-wheelers were used on anything but miners' trains from the 1930s on?

[Fenway Park]

They were used on the Tanat Valley branch to Llangynog with the service starting from Oswestry. According to Mike Lloyd's book Diagram T34 U4 were seen in 1931 and 1935 with Diagrams T29 and S9 in 1936.

In the war bogie diagram E40 were added. Post war it was S11 and S18 with the E40. It would appear the four wheelers went before the end of passenger services.

T29 and T34 are Brake 3rds 31ft long built in 1878 S11 and S18 are 5 compartment 3rds but differing lengths while the U4 appear to be composites although the list also states U4 as all third. 26ft 10 in.

Hope this helps. I am sure the many GWR experts will correct any errors.

There are no photos in C C Green's Cambrian Album No2 apart for a coach end,

[Adrian Wintle]

... while the U4 appear to be composites although the list also states U4 as all third. 26ft 10 in.

 

U4 was a tri-composite* (and is the prototype that the Ratio compo represents), and may have been used as a compo 1931, but it probably got downgraded to an all third fairly quickly.

 

*One first, one second, and two thirds, IIRC.

 

Adrian

[Fat Controller]

A very few 4-wheelers hung on till the end of 1952 on the Burry Port and Gwendraeth Valley line. They were used to convey colliers and were not upholstered. Some of them managed to get a coat of crimson paint at the end of their lives.

 

In the early 30s the B sets that we know and love were replacing sets of four wheelers on country lines but I doubt that the change was made overnight.

 

Chris

 

PS: I'm sure that at least one bogie clerestory coach lasted long enough to get a coat of crimson too.

The BP&GV examples were apparently mainly 'City' stock 5-compartment Thirds to Dia S17 ; three were modified to have accomodation for a guard; there were also examples of T59 City Brake 3rds, S11 Branch 5-compartment Thirds and T32 Branch Brake Thirds. Eight lasted until after Nationalisation, two surviving until the end of passenger services in September 1953.

Photos can be found on P288/9 of Volume 2 of 'The Burry Port and Gwendreath Railway and its antecedent canals', published by Oakwood.

The photos show an all-over chocolate livery, purportedly applied by BR, to no W180.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for all the info. Does anyone know if 4-wheelers were used on anything but miners' trains from the 1930s on?

Some definitely survived in departmental use until the mid 1960s (S&T Dept - I have a pic of several at Didcot in 1965) - I think basically as accommodation vehicles on site work but obviously they were moved between sites.

[wagonman]

Roxey do/did etched brass kits for the 'metro' stock as used on the BP&GVR. Such stock was wider, lower and generally more cramped than normal 4-wheelers.

 

The Ratio kits are for the T47 brake/3rd, S9 all 3rd and the U4 composite though it has been stretched a bit. The U4 was originally 1st/2nd, later 1st/3rd, and some late survivors may well have been downgraded to all 3rd. This stock was built in the late 1890s and early 1900s specifically for local services and generaly survived until the late '20s or early '30s when the new B-sets arrived. Many branch sets consisted of a couple of 3-compartment brake/3rds (T34) sandwiching a U4 composite. The set used on the Malmesbury branch (which actually used a U5) survived until 1934 and in its last year was hauled by a Collett tank instead of the old '517' class.

 

The Highworth and Wrington Vale branches also had similar sets of coaches into the early '30s at least, otherwise it was workmen's trains only.

[Coach bogie]

There were also a few 6 wheelers about. The G20 saloons crop up several times in the Soole photo collection, running in mainline trains. There will still about 12 in use in 1937.

 

As for clerestories ther were many still about in the 1930's and much later. (I have an old Stirling Video VHS which has a blood and custard clerestory in a train at Teignmouth).Many of the later corridor clerestories were still in regular use, with some having the gas lighting replaced with electricity.

 

Some rarer ones still about featuring in books all approx 1937

Two coach train comprised of an F10 double clerestory slip with a C23 clerestory third.

 

E48 Brake compo - dual braked for working on the LNER used as a single through coach

 

E39 'Falmouth Coupe' in a local passenger train with clerestories C3, C3,C10 in the formation.

 

Prototype for everything!. Two clerestories, an E72 rebult as an E119, E25 both tri composites hauled by a 52xx no 5224

 

An E45 with a C10 on local trip with a 517.

 

G33 48' clerestory saloon heading up a mainline train. Similar train with a G18 clerestory saloon.

 

Local train with C10, G20,G20,C10,C10 hauled by 6013 King Henry VIII.

 

Also still around were some of the clerestory TPO coaches and the H2/7 diners. Some clerestory brake thirds were rebuilt as 'tea' cars with one compartment being replaced by a small counter, for services that did not warrant a full dining car.

 

C10's appear all over the place, the most common working, as a strengthing vehicle with B sets.

 

i appreciate you are modelling a branch line, but these observation serve to illustrate that there were still many and varied different types of 4 & 6 wheelers and bogie clerestories still around.

 

Regards

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Coach bogie]

Just come across another interesteing set that was still in use in 1957. The Glyncorrwg-North Rhonda miners train, comprised of a three coach clerestory set, kitted out as a partial auto trailer set. No control gear, just a gong and brake. Three windows were cut into the end in auto trailer style.

 

 

regards

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Dazzler Fan]

Some definitely survived in departmental use until the mid 1960s (S&T Dept - I have a pic of several at Didcot in 1965) ..

 

I have a Ratio model liveried 'Engineers Dept", on my layout.

[terry_nyorks]

Lots of clerestory photos inc GWR, and from many countries, available on Flick group "Clerestory coaches (Railways)" . Please feel free to review and contibute.

 

Also check out Isle of Wight Railways Group on Flickr ( Isle of Wight Railways group ), you may have to search to hone in on suitable coaches, as people add in the ex LT stock running on BR metals. Some images will give histories of various 4 wheel coaches, e.g. this example : SR 4-wheel carriage #6336, and SR 4 wheel 3rd coach #2515

[Departmental]

take a look at Paul bartlett's photo collection, there are quite a few examples of the 4 wheelers in Departmental guise

[terry_nyorks]

Some updates and links to my 22 Aug 2012 notes, covering clerestories and 4 wheel stock.

 

Updated 12/2016 (earlier links seem to have disappeared) : Use the searching methods indicated in this Flickr group discussion:

https://www.flickr.com/groups/2031425@N22/discuss/72157634339773272/

 

Plus there are various extra methods now : You can search by US/Canadian state, and many countries as well; plus the 4 UK group companies.

[Castle]

I'm sure that at least one bogie clerestory coach lasted long enough to get a coat of crimson too.

Hi All,

 

I did try to post this during the black out yesterday so lets try again... Chris is quite right in this assertion - that is the only reason some of them survived to captivity at 81E! Famously, we have such exotica as:

 

http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/coaches/1941/1941.html

 

No. 1941 was a Dean Clerestory all third that was in service until the late 1950s. There is another one hidden away for a rainy day too:

 

http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/coaches/1357/1357.html

 

Or you might like this:

 

http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/coaches/933/933.html

 

Ok, No.933 is a full brake and not a passenger coach, but it too was in service until the late 1950s.

 

I hope this helps!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[The Johnster]

I am modelling an imaginary branch not far from Glyncorrwg, so all this is grist to the mill, in particular the 3-windowed 'pseudo auto' clerestory brake 3rd with the gong.

 

The OP is not after any information about the miners trains, but I would be most interested.  I know they were modified with unupholstered seats to facilitate cleaning, but that most services had 'clean' accommodation for staff who had not got dirty, and I assume these kept their cushions.  I also assume that, in the case of the 4 wheelers on the North Rhondda service, the 'clean' accommodation would have been in a former 1st class vehicle downgraded to third.  My train will be based on, but not necessarily an accurate model of, the Glyncorrwg-North Rhondda trains, and I am assuming vehicles in wartime all-over brown with maybe one in BR crimson, none of them any too clean.

 

I am making at least 3 assumption in one paragraph here, and would be grateful for any information that might prevent me doing that in future.  Likewise the clerestories, rebogied Triang will probably 'do', again in a mixture of wartime brown and crimson.  Were there trains of mixed 4-wheel and clerestory stock, and was the faux auto restricted to North Rhondda as the result of a propelling movement.  Was it in fact an auto conversion with the auto gear removed, diagram G or M.?  

 

I have in mind a mixed bag of a couple of 4-wheerlers and a clerestory, in a mix of brown or crimson, but is this taking modeller's license too far.  I won't do it if such trains never ran anywhere in the 50s.

[NCB]

The Tanat Valley line, from grouping to the early 1950s, when the passenger service ceased, used 4-wheel coaches mixed in with the odd 8-wheel Dean coach. Pictures of that era show a Dean D15 (or similar, fairly certain it was a D15) in regular use; this was a "clerestory-style" (as far as the body goes) brake third coach, but the roof didn't actually have a clerestory. Blacksmith did a kit for a D15, no longer easy to get hold of. You could take a Triang clerestory brake third and remove the clerestory. However, I don't see why a clerestory version shouldn't appear on such a service.

[Crichel Down]

Leaving aside miners' trains and engineers' stock, most 4-wheel coaches disappeared fairly early in the 1920s, although they lingered longer on a very limited number of branch lines, e.g. the Abingdon Branch until the early 1930s, the Highworth Branch until the mid-late 1930s, Tanat Valley branch ditto, and there may have been one or two others that I have forgotten.

 

On the whole, though, we don't have an excuse for 4-wheelers on most layouts after the early 1920s.

 

Clerestoreys lasted longer, sometimes into the 1940s.

[phil_sutters]

There were also a few 6 wheelers about. The G20 saloons crop up several times in the Soole photo collection, running in mainline trains. There will still about 12 in use in 1937.

 

As for clerestories ther were many still about in the 1930's and much later. (I have an old Stirling Video VHS which has a blood and custard clerestory in a train at Teignmouth).Many of the later corridor clerestories were still in regular use, with some having the gas lighting replaced with electricity.

 

 

 

Regards

 

Mike Wiltshire

Dad photographed a clerestory slip coach in 1938 at Didcot. I think that I may have uploaded this to another thread - so apologies if you have seen it before.

 

[martinT]

... and there may have been one or two others that I have forgotten.

 

On the whole, though, we don't have an excuse for 4-wheelers on most layouts after the early 1920s.

 

Amazingly, 4 wheeled coaches lasted well into the 1920s on the Barnstaple line. See photos from the NRM's Halls collection dated to the late 1920s. These shew passenger trains composed of a fantastic mixture of stock - 4 wheelers, clerestorys, & toplights, often with horseboxes. Some of the trains with 4 wheelers are running with express headlights. For a few examples see Magg's Oakwood Press Book 'The Taunton to Barnstaple Line' or Freddie Huxtable's new book on the line, volume 1 just published by Lightmoor.   See:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/114437-the-devon-and-somerset-railway/

or:  http://lightmoor.co.uk/books/the-taunton-to-barnstaple-line-a-history-of-the-devon-somerset-railway-volume-1-from-conception-to-demise/L8153

 

44 miles in a 4 wheeler in 1927 - unbelievable!

Martin

[Darwinian]

There ias a very nice view of Rhymney station in John Hutons book "The Rhymney railway Vol.1 The main line from Cardiff" dated as 1937. Of 12 coaches on view 6 are clerestories and 2 of the others are arc roofed so presumably absorbed stock. None of the coaches are showing a corridor side. So plenty of clerestories still in use on this "main line".

[Londontram]

OK it's got no connection with the GWR but the Caledonian were still building new four wheel carriages into the 1920s for use on the Balerno branch in Edinburgh as it was very sharply curved, to much so for bigger stock. It does show that there were examples and at the end of the day its your railway and rule 1 applies so as long as you don't do anything to silly like have them diesel hauled and painted blue/gray then it should look OK.

 

Blue gray diesel hauled four wheel coaches. Hmm now there's a thought......

[K14]

4-wheelers were certainly around until the mid-1930s if these potted histories for 1st/2nd Compos to Dia. U.4 are anything to go by:—
 
No. 8:

 

Built 1900

Renumbered 6008 in 1907

Downgraded to Workmen's Third & renumbered 747 in 1938

Converted to Mess & Tool Van and renumbered 215 in 1946.

No. 290:

Entered traffic 28/06/1902
Incandescent Gas lights 5/1913
Converted to Mess & Tool/Storage Van for the Electrical Section 5/12/1942

 

A 'Penalty £5' transfer uncovered over a 1st Class doorway during restoration suggests that 290 may have been downgraded to Third at some point, but there's no documentary evidence to support this.

 

Pete S.

[PatB]

I have an extremely vague memory of seeing a photo of a 4 wheeler in service on the Culm Valley branch at quite a late date (post-WW2 maybe) but that might just be advancing age making its presence felt .