Starting again :-)

[B McG]

Hello All,

After three years of messing around with a multilevel DC layout that took over the bedroom / office the said layout is no more. Many reasons as to why it got ripped out, but the final nail was when we realised that installing double glazing next year in the said office / bedroom would be impossible such was the space taken by the ill thought out contruction! That and we needed the extra bedroom later this year for guests...

 

I had never really planned the previous layout properly which meant alterations from lack of planning were frequent and time consuming. Of particular note was the the basebord construction which was shocking, the constraints of the room compromised the layout, (I built around an arch way amongst other things) derailments and detachments / runaways of rolling stock were all to commow due to some gradients that resulted from said poor planning. I felt I was due a fresh start after learning so many things, so a couple of weekend ago the old layout boards disappeared into the great skip in the sky....

 

Fortunately my wife has kindly given me use of 2/3rds of the garage. After 3 days of messing about with XtrackCAD with much cursing and swearing I've finally got the measure of this program. Attached is what I hope to start building later this year funds permitting, basically a roundy with an exit to a helix and fiddle yard.

 

There are a few contraints to this layout, underneath there will be storage cupboards which necessitates a lift out section on the right (boxed) so that my wife has ease of access. The height of upper boards will be 4 feet with the fiddle yard around 3 feet. On the plan the top left is limited to 10 feet length due to our fridge freezer and the lower length is limited by our electricity meter at the 11 foot mark. Still 10 - 11 feet by 7 is not at all that bad I ideally wanted to go with two helixes for continuous running but the room was not there even using 2nd radius. (Which I'm reasonably sure would have generated too much friction for a single engine to pull 6 caoches) I also investigated using a reverse loop on the inner line to access the single helix but this resulted in an unacceptable loss of space in the operator well (see blue block in centre of file no.3) even when 2nd radius track was simulated.

 

I'm going to take the plunge and will change from code 100 to 75 after reading much useful advice and tips on DCC, and go electrofrog. The only exception to code 75 will be the line in the the helix where I intend to use code 100 3rd radius at a 3 degrees incline. I wouldn't mind some feedback on this in terms of other peoples experiences, whether this is a sensible option or am should I be I really looking at a wider radius.

 

The layout era wll be 70's to early 80's BR Blue and this the second draft without traps point yet so be gentle. It will be set in Devon, I haven't really researched any stations as such but more used my imagination a bit in creating something will have a bit of operation interest. The station will easily accept a 6 coach rake, has a siding for a mail train and has the facility for goods train to use a bi directional inside loop. To add interest an engine shed and fueling point is above the main station in terms of the layout plan. On the inside of the passing loop at the top I am mulling either a cement or China clay works.

 

Almost all of my engines are DDC ready so it will be a case of chipping them and selling the reminder along with most of my code 100 track on Ebay. I'll be using side mounted Peco point motors in the fiddle yard and mounting motors under the boards for the layout itself.

 

Feel free to comment on how prototypical this and whether the design will need further ammendments to suit operating it, all feedback is most welcome. :-)

Cheers & thanks

Bryant.

[Kris]

I can see a couple of problems with this plan.

 

1. The gradient that you have created to get to the helix is going to end up being over 8%, more likely 10% to give you the clearance that you will need. This is going to cause some very significant limitations in the length of trains that you can run.

2. Trains can only access the fiddle yard from one direction. To access from the other direction will require the train to run on the wrong line. You can get over this by putting a crossover in in the area of the square box that you have on your plan.

[B McG]

I can see a couple of problems with this plan.

 

1. The gradient that you have created to get to the helix is going to end up being over 8%, more likely 10% to give you the clearance that you will need. This is going to cause some very significant limitations in the length of trains that you can run.

2. Trains can only access the fiddle yard from one direction. To access from the other direction will require the train to run on the wrong line. You can get over this by putting a crossover in in the area of the square box that you have on your plan.

 

Thanks for your feedback, the box section is intended to be a lift out section and I was a bit nervous about putting a crossover there. That's probably not insurmountable.

 

I am kicking myself over the the access road toward the helix though. At a minimum I need to drop 3" and if I included part of the curve I've only got 3 feet on the plan. It is 8% minimum as you've correctly pointed out! Its so ironic that I took the time to calculate out a helix with a reasonable gradient, yet forgot the approach entirely.

 

Maybe the answer to this is to move the helix all the way down to the bottom left, lengthen the approach by routing it from the inside running line possibly negating the need for a crossing on the lift out section. As a bonus I can lengthen the fiddle yard possibly. A job for tomorrow night on XtrackCAD methinks!

 

Once again thanks, I'm so glad I posted this now :-)

 

Cheers

Bryant

[Kris]

I was working on a 4" clearance, 3" sounds very very tight if you include the baseboard thickness.

[Kris]

I've had a quick play and created this. It's very much based on Newton Abbot using the line to Torbay as the line to the fiddle yard. I've only put an indication of where your goods facilities would be. These are on the other side in reality ( The branch to Mortonhempstead would be where I have suggested you put your goods).

 

Thinking of gradients you should be able to achieve a gradient to about 2.5% on the line to the fiddle yard giving a 4 inch clearance. Keep your helix in the same location but the entrance is obviously going to be in a different location if you wanted to drop back to a single track then that is possible but you also have the option of a double track version.

 

This plan does mean that you have 4 tracks going over your lifting section including 2 on a gradient but it does avoid pointwork on this section.

 

I do have some concerns as to how you will reach some of the pointwork in the fiddle yard, this might need some further thought.

[B McG]

Thanks for your input Kris, I have replanned and got the gradient down to 3.5 degrees, see attached. Then I saw your post that threw a curve ball of sorts. I never considered the idea of moving the station and this has given me further pause for thought.

 

Regarding reaching the pointwork the intention is to motorise all points, side mounts for the fiddle yard and undermounted for the scenic sections on top. Building wise the intention will be to construct the fiddle yard first followed by the helix before tackling the scenic section.

 

 

 

 

I'm going to revisit the plan again, I think moving the station has a lot of merit. More plans to follow.... :-)

[Dave777]

Just a thought, couldn't you draft the station onto the second track plan you've got there (the fiddleyard) and then have a much simpler and easier layout to build?

 

I am bias towards quick to finish layouts, so that would go some way to explain my thinking, but I just view the whole helix and lower fiddleyard thing as being massively complicated in terms of trackwork and baseboard construction (and ease of access) in order to achieve and extra 7 feet or so of running line.

 

Here's a crude cut & paste:

 

 

With some adjustment, you could even squeeze in a 'bypass' double running line in front of the fiddleyard where you could view trains running through a stretch of embankment or whatever if you want to reclaim the extra running length.

[Kris]

Glad that the one I through together has given you some inspiration. I look forward to seeing what this brings. Dave's suggestion also has lots going for it but in the end you are the only one who can make the choice.

[Katier]

I have to agree with Dave.

 

With your width and depth you can get a lot of storage in without getting complex and still have the ability to have scenery all the way round.

 

If you start most of the sidings in the curve you'll get well over 12 ft which will allow two trains back to back, or even to split some sidings (so either train can exit.). Say 1 running line, 2 'half lines' joining the running line ( allowing either half to exit via the running line), and two full length storage lines - do that each way and you can store 4 trains either way. Then use the space used by the front 3 lines as a scenic run through. I'd finish the run through with a tunnel so you don't have a 'roundy roundy'.

[B McG]

I have to agree with Dave.

 

With your width and depth you can get a lot of storage in without getting complex and still have the ability to have scenery all the way round.

 

 

Thanks for the feedback. I've been spending my evening on the laptop in a hotel looking at creating as many storage roads as I can without resorting to a helix. There are two potential banana skins, I only have 10 feet at the top of the plan as opposed to 11feet at the bottom. The second issue is my rolling stock - I have amassed a fair collection. 3 x 6 / 7 coach rakes of mk1's, mk2a's and mk2d's. Then there's the HST with 6 mk3's which I was planning to extend out by one more. A couple of my freights are appraching full length too, and there are 5 other rakes of various wagons. This is why when I designed the first two drafts my focus was on a station that could accomodate full length (8 foot) trains and enough storage away from the running lines for all my stock.

 

That being said there is another option of moving the station to the top of the plan and using the 11 foot side as the storage zone.....

 

 

I really am learning the art of compromise this evening!! Time for a pint at the hotel bar I think.... :-)

 

Cheers

Bryant

[B McG]

Well I've finished off the plan I started last night without a helix and moved the station. I may smooth out the curve at the top left to make it less severe, but hopefully this will help give a gist of a plan without a second storage deck. The double line marks either side mark a scenic break into the fiddle yard situated on the bottom of the plan now. There is room for improvement in terms of making the storage lines a bit longer, which may entail further number of 3 way points. I am a little nervous at the thought of the possibility using them, I have heard they can be troublesome in terms of derailments. Again all advice is welcome, I'm still undecided but open to all ideas :-)

 

 

Thanks

Bryant

[B McG]

After some consideration it's become clear the helix idea is dead, the added complication I now realise is not probably not worth the extra effort. I'm going to go with either of the following designs as suggested by the feedback I got. Moving the station to the side was under consideration until I realised there was the consequence of a pull out section with 8 to 10 lines - not a good idea if one hasn't removed the rolling stock :-)

 

Anyway the two plans I have under consideration:-

 

The first is half scenic with a large station with tunnels leading to a good sized fiddle yard for my stock. The head shunt now is a branch line into a tunnel and links to 3 of the fiddle yard lines. The sharp curves on the bottom right will be hidden by a tunnel. This design will be more expensive in terms of track mainly due to the profligate use of 3 way points in the fiddle yard to save space and to increase the line length. This I know will accomodate all my stock and allow for some expansion.

 

The second has the fiddle yard behind a back scene. All sharp curves with be hidden by shortish tunnels including the junction just outside the station and the y point juction. A slight complication will be the the pull out section will have four lines rather then two. Overall it is a simpler design but the junction will help with the operational interest against the loss of the bidirectional middle line that was present in the first design. Counting the four line goods yard this has enough storage for my existing stock but will not allow for much expansion.

 

I'm a bit undecided which way to go, both have their merits and disadvantages. I'm going to have to mull this one over a bit but I'm leaning toward the second...

 

All comments welcome :-)

Thanks

Bryant

 

 

 

[B McG]

With a little bit more messing around I've finally got to a point where I'm happy with the track design. Rather than double tracking into the fiddle yard I've used two double slips instead, one just outside the the station and one hidden behind a tunnel and backscene that allows entry onto either running line from the fiddle yard. Instead of 4 lines the removable section now has 3 lines. The fiddle yard has 7 lines which will accomodate at least 9 trains, the two outside lines are 12-13 feet long and all 3 three way points have been removed. I'm going to re use my code 100 track in the fiddle yard however it will mean modding the points for dcc operation, but it will save expense. The engine shed moved closer to the station, and the sidings have been re-arranged into something more workable as well as applying a less is more approach.

 

The advice on hiding the fiddle yard behind a backscene was invaluable, after refinement the overall design looks simpler, interesting and more workable to operate. Thanks to everyone for their feedback, now the next stop is baseboard design :-)

 

 

Cheers

Bryant

[Katier]

I'd make one last change.

 

Replace the D/S with a diamond and feed the two lines out of the station into a curved point which combine them into a single line on the curve before the lift up section then through to the fiddle yard.

 

Also consider how you are going to access the fiddle yard. I would attach the backscene with magnets so if you need to access the fiddle yard you can quickly remove the backscene if required.

 

One other thing you could do is use that dead space in the bottom left hand corner. Put a siding there (hidden obviously) which could hold a push-pull or DMU or similar. That siding then acts as a 'bay siding' for the off scene destination. Thus your bay platform on the station can feed the siding. Very short run for the service but should work nicely, your 'cross over' is after the over bridge already so it's not like the short length of 'wrong line' running should matter.

[B McG]

Thanks Katier,

After having a further play I think I've nailed down the plan. I've put two hidden sidings for a 2 and 3 car DMU in the dead space. The stranded track will be used as the programming track. I'm using two tunnel sections at top right and bottom left to hide the fact that the layout is a roundy and thanks to moving our fridge in the garage indoors I have a full 12 feet to play with on the station side now. First cutting of baseboard will be in a couple of weeks....

 

[SHMD]

Hi,

 

Not much I can add but I have noticed that you want to use Peco code 75 but in you plans and you are using code 100 geometry.

(I know, I did the same thing. Xtrakcad only comes with code 100 in the libraries.)

I think (HOPE!!!) this only affects the 3-way "asymmetric" point.

 

You can add a custom designed 3-way point by clicking on MANAGE, TURNOUT DESIGNER and then 3-WAY TURNOUT. And then add the numbers that I have attached to this post. (In cm.)

(Make sure that you have changed to METRIC in OPTION PREFERENCES otherwise you will end up with a 25.4foot 3-way point!)

 

The 2 numbers I have ringed in RED need to be verified. Could someone please help here?

(They look right from a distance - if you squint!)

 

Regards,

Kev.

[SHMD]

Here's an example of it in use.

(I hope I've got the asymmetry right!)

 

Kev.

[B McG]

Here's an example of it in use.

(I hope I've got the asymmetry right!)

 

Kev.

 

Hi Kev

Thanks for taking the time to show how a assymetric 3 way point can be added into the libraries.

 

I just "borrowed" this image from Hattons, I think your effort looks close

 

 

And I also think its a great idea to use as a space saver in the corner :-)

 

Cheers

Bryant

[B McG]

Time for an update, I have been busy of late but have managed to do much of the framework in the garage. The track plan has also changed since my last post. Essentially the shunting yard has changed orientation and the left junction for the fiddle yard will be half hidden by an overpass with a town scape on top. I decided that the right hand junction will be completely hidden due to the sharp radius track that necessitates entry into the fiddle yard. Road lengths of the 7 lines of the fiddle yard has increased as a result of some further refining. As a bonus the SWMBO dropped the requirement for a lift out section as the contruction will be high enough at 43 inches (or 110cm in new money) to duck under for access for all the other stuff we have stored in the garage.

 

 

After looking over a number of other threads in the DCC section it seems the NCE Powercab is an obvious choice for this size of layout. When I get round to wiring the intention is to allow for expansion using a 5 amp booster.

 

Santa was kind enough to get me all of the points and track needed for the fiddle yard plus the running line at the bottom of the plan. I'm considering using Peco surface mounts for the fiddle yard points, having never wired a point in my life this will also be a learning experience.

 

I haven't yet decided on the motors that will be mounted under the boards in the station area or a name yet for the layout.

Anyway, here's the scene as of this evening.....

 

 

[Crewlisle]

What luxury, 10/11ft x 7 ft! Why restrict yourself to a single level? See my suggestions and track plan in 'What can I fit in here' by Del dated 10 December. I have an 8'6" x 7'6" 3 interconnecting 3 level exhibition layout which always attracts favourable comments. When visitors have seen my layout at exhibitions, many have changed their minds from a terminus to fiddle yard design to my design - 4 platform terminus for 6 coach expresses, steam and diesel sheds, goods yard, double track continuous run WCML with overhead catenary and reversing loop with a 14 cartridge exchange system in lieu of a fiddle yard. Fiddle yards are wasted space!

[Katier]

Nothing wrong with being 'on the flat' and gradients can cause all sorts of problems.. that said I would reccomend the OP raises his track up to give him room below the track bed level for scenery.

[B McG]

What luxury, 10/11ft x 7 ft! Why restrict yourself to a single level? See my suggestions and track plan in 'What can I fit in here' by Del dated 10 December. I have an 8'6" x 7'6" 3 interconnecting 3 level exhibition layout which always attracts favourable comments. When visitors have seen my layout at exhibitions, many have changed their minds from a terminus to fiddle yard design to my design - 4 platform terminus for 6 coach expresses, steam and diesel sheds, goods yard, double track continuous run WCML with overhead catenary and reversing loop with a 14 cartridge exchange system in lieu of a fiddle yard. Fiddle yards are wasted space!

 

What a fantastic use of space if you don't mind me saying so. Do you have any pics posted of the cartridge exchange system that you use?

 

I did think early on whether I wanted to go multilevel again, but my last experience wasn't great, almost all the reasons why were down to me as well as my lack of skills on the woodworking front. The other factor is time on two counts. I am away in the week through work and can only work on this at the weekends. Also it's my first time with DCC and I would like to keep things simple on the track front so that I can progress to finishing quicker. Horses for courses I guess :-)

 

Cheers

Bry

[Crewlisle]

As requested, the Word file containing the description of 'Crewlisle' cartridge system is below the sketches. You can have as many cartridges as you want- if you have a convenient space under the layout to store them!

 

Even though you have two fixed datum points to work from, due to slight distortion/warping of the wooden catridges you may have to glue some thin pieces of plastikard to the undersides to ensure the track is level everytime you fit each one. Also to make things easier, file a 50mm piece of 3mm plastikard to 16.5mm wide so you can use it as an easy track alignment gauge before tightening the bolts at each end.

CARTRIDGE 5-5-12.doc

[B McG]

Time for a wee update, progress has been slow at times however I thought I would share a few pictures of where I'm at currently.

I can't believe it has been three years has passed since I approached this forum with some ideas.

 

Thanks for all of your feedback, heres how far I've gotten so far. There's still a long way to go though! :-)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SHMD]

Thanks for the update - nearly 5 years!

 

Great progress (much more than me) and it looks like things a running too - by the looks of all that stock.

(I just love the 08 in the parcels bays next to the HST.)

 

 

Kev.