Midland Railway paint change from green to red

[Ohmisterporter]

When the MR changed the colour of its engines from green to red would pairs of engines with different livery be run together? With double heading being common am I correct in assuming that green and red locos would be rostered for the same train? Would the most prestigious trains be hauled with mixed coloured engines or would matching pairs be used on them, i.e. both green or both red?

 

Obviously the repainting did not happen overnight so there must have been a degree of pairing with mixed colours, especially at less prestigious stations. I imagine that the red engines appeared first at St Pancras then cascaded out from there. I could be wrong of course. Google is vague on this.

[Poor Old Bruce]

Not sure that many trains would br double-headed at that time. A lot of double-heading started circa 1900ish when better coaches were being introduced including dining facilities so that trains got much heavier. Certainly green and red engines would be runing side for several years. Other than that, apart from the first red engines appearing at Derby of course, I think you already have the answer to your question.

[coachmann]

Livery was there to protect the metal work and so there was no reason why MR red or green engines shouldn't mix.

[Poor Old Bruce]

"Midland Style" (the HMRS book that self-transforms into loose-leaf style) states that the first locos to be painted red were some condensing 0-4-4Ts so St. Pancras and the suburban services would be right after all.

 

That was in mid 1894 btw.

[DaveF]

I would think that once the decision to change to red was made that the new colour would simply be applied to existing locos as they went through works for overhaul, and probably only if a repaint was needed (i.e. after a major overhaul not just repair of minor damage) as it cost money.

 

The same would have happened when the goods engine livery changed to black, though some goods engines were then painted brown for a time.

 

Usually the Midland seems to have returned overhauled locos to their previous shed, so for some time the most areas would have seen a mixture of colours.

 

Remember there were very many engines to paint and the Midland livery needed many coats of paint and varnish so it was not a quick process, unlike applying vinyls today. The Midland painting specifiction in 1891 for a class of locos built by Sharp Stewart was for for the main parts of a loco:

One coat of lead oxide or colour, to be stopped, filled and rubbed down.

Two more coats of lead oxide or colour, then sandpapered.

Two coats of crimson lake.

Black and yellow lining then applied.

Three coats of varnish.

Source:An Illustrated Review of Midland Locomotives, Essery and Jenkinson, Wild Swan.

 

David

[Armchair Modeller]

Repainting existing locos is one thing - but new locos would have had the new livery from the start - assuming there were no large stocks of the old paint to get rid of first. If you see what was built shortly after the change you might possibly get an idea of what ran in the new livery from new.

[hmrspaul]

"Midland Style" (the HMRS book that self-transforms into loose-leaf style) states that the first locos to be painted red were some condensing 0-4-4Ts so St. Pancras and the suburban services would be right after all.

 

That was in mid 1894 btw.

Rather suprisingly it sounds as if you have not got Midland Style. There is a 1975 edition available on Abebooks at the moment http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=5707453406&tab=1&searchurl=bt.x%3D62%26bt.y%3D13%26kn%3Dhmrs%26sts%3Dt%26tn%3DMidland%2BStyle Page 71 onwards of the 1978 edition is where this change of livery is described.

 

Paul Bartlett

[Ohmisterporter]

Thanks for the replies chaps.

[Poor Old Bruce]

Rather suprisingly it sounds as if you have not got Midland Style. There is a 1975 edition available on Abebooks at the moment http://www.abebooks....Midland%2BStyle Page 71 onwards of the 1978 edition is where this change of livery is described.

 

Paul Bartlett

I was somewhat disappointed with Paul’s post as his comments are usually helpful and constructive whereas this post is neither. It is critical without saying what he thinks I have said wrong and then descends into fantasy by claiming I do not have a copy of the book I was quoting from. Should I supply photographs or go to a commissioner for oaths perhaps? I will give Paul the benefit of the doubt and assume he has a copy of the 1978 edition since he tells us that there is something on page 71 but without actually telling us what. I will thus give an extended quote from page 71 of the 1975 edition of ‘Midland Style’.

 

“....... in September 1881 class 1492 2-4-0 No.1500 and nine other locomotives were experimentally painted a dull red. The object of this was to find a less fugitive, more economic and more distinctive colour than the green. The outcome of the experiment was the development and adoption of the famous crimson lake which became known as “Midland red”, although its official description at the time was oxide of iron. The Locomotive Committee minute of 2^nd November 1883 which ordered that all Midland engines were to be painted the new colour also stated that the estimated saving would be £2,000 a year. The last Midland engine to be painted green was 0-4-4T No.1636, completed at Derby in July 1883.” There is then a reference to a photograph of that engine which is irrelevant at this particular time.

 

“The earliest available paint Specification for the crimson lake livery is that of June 1894 for five 0-4-4T locomotives fitted with condensing gear.”

 

It is the latter paragraph which I used as a basis for my earlier post, thinking at the time that it sounded a bit late but not actually appreciating the ten year gap from the previous paragraph. It must be concluded therefore that either:

a) The Midland were a long time issuing the painting specification, or

B) The given date of 1894 should actually be 1884.

Perhaps later editions of the book contain a different date if someone would care to tell us please.

 

Further reading in ‘Britain’s Railway Liveries 1825-1948’ by Ernest F. Carter (Yes, I have a copy of this book as well) confirms that, in 1884 “Engines were painted a “dark red”, instead of bright green, on the grounds of economy.”

 

Stephen Summerson, in ‘Midland Railway Locomotives’ (that’s three books I have) tells us that “...the recommendation of the Locomotive Committee that in future all locomotive engines be painted with oxide of iron instead of green.” was approved by the General purposes Committee on 18 October 1883.

 

As I do not have personal access to the original documentation from which the above mentioned authors acquired their information, I have to accept their writings unless I know otherwise from my own personal knowledge which does not go back quite as far as 1884. If they have got it wrong or have unwittingly introduced typographical errors or made ambiguous comments in their works which have not been identified in proof reading then we are all losers and all I can do is apologise if my previous post was misleading and congratulate those who have read through this diatribe. I hope the above clarifies the situation.

[asmay2002]

“....... in September 1881 class 1492 2-4-0 No.1500 and nine other locomotives were experimentally painted a dull red. The object of this was to find a less fugitive, more economic and more distinctive colour than the green. The outcome of the experiment was the development and adoption of the famous crimson lake which became known as “Midland red”, although its official description at the time was oxide of iron. The Locomotive Committee minute of 2^nd November 1883 which ordered that all Midland engines were to be painted the new colour also stated that the estimated saving would be £2,000 a year. The last Midland engine to be painted green was 0-4-4T No.1636, completed at Derby in July 1883.” There is then a reference to a photograph of that engine which is irrelevant at this particular time.

 

“The earliest available paint Specification for the crimson lake livery is that of June 1894 for five 0-4-4T locomotives fitted with condensing gear.”

 

It is the latter paragraph which I used as a basis for my earlier post, thinking at the time that it sounded a bit late but not actually appreciating the ten year gap from the previous paragraph. It must be concluded therefore that either:

a) The Midland were a long time issuing the painting specification, or

B) The given date of 1894 should actually be 1884.

Perhaps later editions of the book contain a different date if someone would care to tell us please.

 

The passage above is pretty clear. The change was made in 1883. The oldest surviving bit of paper which the spec is wriitten on dates from 1894. The second fact deos NOT change the first.

[hmrspaul]

I was somewhat disappointed with Paul’s post as his comments are usually helpful and constructive whereas this post is neither. It is critical without saying what he thinks I have said wrong and then descends into fantasy by claiming I do not have a copy of the book I was quoting from. Should I supply photographs or go to a commissioner for oaths perhaps? I will give Paul the benefit of the doubt and assume he has a copy of the 1978 edition since he tells us that there is something on page 71 but without actually telling us what. I will thus give an extended quote from page 71 of the 1975 edition of ‘Midland Style’.

 

Apologies if my response was misleading. It was a comment to the original poster (some one who is anonymous as "ohmisterporter" or "Geoff"), not to you. I realise you have Midland Style as you quote it. And useful that you have provided more of the text. Someone who is interested enough in the change from MR green to red should be in possession of Midland Style and I noticed a reasonably priced one was available.

 

Part of my problem is, as recorded elsewhere, those of us on TalkTalk are having a huge amount of difficulty accessing RMWeb, Some explanation was given, but I'm not computer technically literate enough to understand if there is anything I can do about it.

 

Paul Bartlett

 

PS the 1978 edition, which has a corrigenda, does NOT alter the 1894 date, as "ASMAY2002" says all that is claimed is that the earliest the author found was 1894, there may well have been earlier. It is nigh on impossible to get such information for the first decade of BR, so George Dow did well to find this.

[Poor Old Bruce]

Apology accepted Paul, misunderstanding sorted.

 

It's good to know (well, sort of) that it's not just me that's getting slow responses on TalkTalk.

 

Any chance of a scan of the 1978 corrigenda please? or a link to where I could find it. Would a trip to Butterley elicit anything perhaps?

 

Maybe a silly question but what is "ASMAY2002"?

 

BTW, the odd smiley in my post was put in by the computer, not by me. It should have been " B)" and I edited it once but it didn't go away.

 

EDIT: The damn thing has done it again. Is there something about a "b" and a ")" together which sets the computer off doing its own thing????????????????

[kevinlms]

I was somewhat disappointed with Paul’s post as his comments are usually helpful and constructive whereas this post is neither. It is critical without saying what he thinks I have said wrong and then descends into fantasy by claiming I do not have a copy of the book I was quoting from. Should I supply photographs or go to a commissioner for oaths perhaps? I will give Paul the benefit of the doubt and assume he has a copy of the 1978 edition since he tells us that there is something on page 71 but without actually telling us what. I will thus give an extended quote from page 71 of the 1975 edition of ‘Midland Style’.

 

“....... in September 1881 class 1492 2-4-0 No.1500 and nine other locomotives were experimentally painted a dull red. The object of this was to find a less fugitive, more economic and more distinctive colour than the green. The outcome of the experiment was the development and adoption of the famous crimson lake which became known as “Midland red”, although its official description at the time was oxide of iron. The Locomotive Committee minute of 2^nd November 1883 which ordered that all Midland engines were to be painted the new colour also stated that the estimated saving would be £2,000 a year. The last Midland engine to be painted green was 0-4-4T No.1636, completed at Derby in July 1883.” There is then a reference to a photograph of that engine which is irrelevant at this particular time.

 

“The earliest available paint Specification for the crimson lake livery is that of June 1894 for five 0-4-4T locomotives fitted with condensing gear.”

 

It is the latter paragraph which I used as a basis for my earlier post, thinking at the time that it sounded a bit late but not actually appreciating the ten year gap from the previous paragraph. It must be concluded therefore that either:

a) The Midland were a long time issuing the painting specification, or

B) The given date of 1894 should actually be 1884.

Perhaps later editions of the book contain a different date if someone would care to tell us please.

 

Further reading in ‘Britain’s Railway Liveries 1825-1948’ by Ernest F. Carter (Yes, I have a copy of this book as well) confirms that, in 1884 “Engines were painted a “dark red”, instead of bright green, on the grounds of economy.”

 

Stephen Summerson, in ‘Midland Railway Locomotives’ (that’s three books I have) tells us that “...the recommendation of the Locomotive Committee that in future all locomotive engines be painted with oxide of iron instead of green.” was approved by the General purposes Committee on 18 October 1883.

 

As I do not have personal access to the original documentation from which the above mentioned authors acquired their information, I have to accept their writings unless I know otherwise from my own personal knowledge which does not go back quite as far as 1884. If they have got it wrong or have unwittingly introduced typographical errors or made ambiguous comments in their works which have not been identified in proof reading then we are all losers and all I can do is apologise if my previous post was misleading and congratulate those who have read through this diatribe. I hope the above clarifies the situation.

 

 

Funny how green was a very common colour for steam locos, as it appears that it was considered worthwhile to change away from green to red for the Midland & to black for the LNWR. Any idea why say the ECML companies, most Southern & of course the GWR, all continued to use green and apparently ignoring these savings?

 

What other railways changed away from green in the late 19th century?

 

Kevin Martin

[coachmann]

It baffles me as to how the Midland considered it was making savings by changing from green, which is opaque, to lake, which is transparent and required several coats plus special base colour. But there we are. The LNWR did make saving by going to Drop Black with a simple but effective lining out, although it counterbalanced this by giving its carraiges a very ornate livery. Here again though the white and plum colours were opaque and required few coats.

[Nick Holliday]

Funny how green was a very common colour for steam locos, as it appears that it was considered worthwhile to change away from green to red for the Midland & to black for the LNWR. Any idea why say the ECML companies, most Southern & of course the GWR, all continued to use green and apparently ignoring these savings? What other railways changed away from green in the late 19th century? Kevin Martin

Stroudley on the LBSCR moved away from Craven's original green, at least to a certain extent. Whilst he applied an olive green to his goods locos, his passenger classes appeared in his famous(?) Improved Engine Green, which, despite its name, was a rich mustard or gamboge colour, and probably far more expensive to apply than the green.

[Nick Holliday]

Further to my earlier post, I have had a quick trawl through E F Carter’s Liveries of British Railways, and came up with a host of companies that changed from a dark green to another colour. In fact he quotes regarding the Glasgow & South Western Railway “Almost the only railway which survived the various colour changes of locomotive stock.” (According to him, the GCR, GNR and GWR all substantially changed the shade of green they used)

Great Eastern – from 1873 changed to black and then in 1882 the first blue loco 0-4-4T No 189 appeared

Highland – from 1865 Stroudley used yellow, which “reverted” to a light olive green in 1871

Lancashire and Yorkshire – Black introduced from 1876

LBSCR – Stroudley Improved Engine Green from 1872

London Chatham & Dover – Black introduced from 1875

London & North Western – Black from 1873

Metropolitan – Red from 1885

Midland – Red from 1883

Midland & Great Northern – Yellow-brown from 1894

North British – Dark Yellow from 1873

North London – Black from 1883

North Stafford – A chocolate brown from 1882

Somerset & Dorset – Midland Red from 1883, changing to blue from 1885

South Eastern – Many locos were turned out in black from 1887, some classes reverted to green from 1897

Taff Vale – Red-brown from 1873

(Please note that the information, and particularly the dates, may not be that precise; Carter merely collected any references he could find at the time {1952} even where there were contradictions or obvious errors)

[kevinlms]

How about this for an example of how a green, blue or grey loco would look painted differently.

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/103-Hornby-c-Jouef-LOCO-VAPEUR-BR-4-6-2-MERLIN-/260884034539?_trksid=p3907.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D12%26pmod%3D250921999232%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D3945723005975424026

 

 

Kevin Martin

[LNWR18901910]

I didn't know that the Midland Railway used to be green.

[Poor Old Bruce]

I didn't know that the Midland Railway used to be green.

 

That ought to provoke some sort of clever comment since the previous post was in 2011 but I can't think of one off hand  

[LNWR18901910]

That ought to provoke some sort of clever comment since the previous post was in 2011 but I can't think of one off hand  

The LNWR previously had two liveries (green for north division and red for south division) before the lined blackberry livery we all know well today.

[Argos]

The LNWR previously had two liveries (green for north division and red for south division) before the lined blackberry livery we all know well today.

 

Red for the Southern division seems to be a matter for debate.

whether more than a few locos were painted red appears to be open to question.

 

Where's that time machine when you need it.....

[The Johnster]

Green seems to have been in general use for cast iron or steel parts of machinery of all sorts,, except where the surface was a polished working surface, and I suspect the habit of painting railway locomotives green stems from this.  When the railways got going big time, about the 1850s, companies began to realise the value of liveries as branding, as well as identifying their trains at stations used by more than one company.  The Victorians liked their engines to look nice, and this was taken to it's zenith in Edwardian days when the public began to take notice and become enthusiastic.  In very early days, locos had wooden cladding for the boilers and were usually filthy!

 

The practicality of keeping engines clean was probably not a primary concern, in the times when sheds had cleaners to spare and drivers were allocated individual locos that they looked after as a matter of pride.  Such liveries as Stroudley's 'Improved Engine Green' or NER in it's full glory were highly impractical on steam locos in the UK's climate, but that didn't seem to bother anyone until after the Great War, when all of a sudden staff shortages and pooled locos meant that a dirt resistant livery was needed.  Even then Gresley and Bullied did their best to buck the trend.  

 

The livery of a loco is the feature that has the least impact on it's performance, and the most on people's perception of it!