BR coaching region prefixes - did they wander from region to region?

[Dave777]

So if I buy a RTR coach and it's got a M or W prefix for the number, do I need to change it to an E to get the region correct or did they tend to wander around each region anyway?

 

I noticed my stock has a right old mix of prefixes so I'm not sure how inaccurate I'm being? I'm mainly interested in 1970s non-passenger stock btw, so Mk I full brakes, GUVs, Newspaper coaches and the like, but also buffet & restaurant coaches too.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Poor Old Bruce]

NPCS wandered around the system willy nilly. There were Southern vans everywhere it seemed.

 

To ask another question, were the regional prefixes being dropped in the 1970s with the introduction of TOPS? There was certainly an amount of renumbering going on e.g. the 50xxx and 56xxx DMUs to avoid duplication with loco numbers. I think some NPCS was renumbered as well.

[Edwin_m]

I certainly recall the prefixes staying well into the 80s - I think they may have gone with the sector liveries (though a few coaches had sector prefixes instead!).

 

I think if a rake made a full journey without splitting or joining, then the passenger stock including the catering coach would usually all have the same prefix, though occasionally a different one might be substituted to replace a cripple.

[leopardml2341]

NPCS wandered around the system willy nilly. There were Southern vans everywhere it seemed.

 

To ask another question, were the regional prefixes being dropped in the 1970s with the introduction of TOPS? There was certainly an amount of renumbering going on e.g. the 50xxx and 56xxx DMUs to avoid duplication with loco numbers. I think some NPCS was renumbered as well.

 

 

IIRC GUVs were numbered in the 86nnn series and they were renumbered to 94nnn ?

[Flood]

 

 

IIRC GUVs were numbered in the 86nnn series and they were renumbered to 94nnn ?

Standard Guvs went from 86xxx to 93xxx but Newspaper ones went to 94050 - 94078 (not the 1978 conversions but other ones 10 years later) and Motorail Guvs went to 96xxx.

 

In answer to Richard (Poor Old Bruce), the regional prefixes stayed until sectorisation (about 1986 on coaching stock). The pre-nationalisation NPCCS did loose their suffixes on repaints from about 1977. Seeing as there were mass withdrawals of LMS and LNER CCTs in 1977 and GW BGs in 1978-79 it was only really the Southern Vans plus some Siphon Gs and LMS BGs (less gangways) that were given new paint and numbers without suffixes.

 

I've never checked to see whether DMUs lost their prefixes or not after 1986. Most of the 1st gen stock was being withdrawn as the 150s arrived anyway.

 

 

In answer to the original post Richard is absolutely correct. NPCCS (such as GUVs, CCTs and BGs) wondered everywhere. You could find a Siphon G in Inverness or an LNER CCT at Penzance. Passenger carrying coaching stock tended to have the prefixes changed very soon after a region change so most coaches had their correct prefix for where they were allocated.

 

Even so rakes would be made up of the stock available. For air-con rakes the stock wasn't reallocated much until 1977 when the HSTs came in (the pressure vent Mk2 stock also tended to be reallocated between regions in batches to upgrade specific services) but a classic example of a Mk1 rake is below:

 

14.40 Leeds - Plymouth, 14 May 1977 (a Western Region rake) noted in the Railway Observer

M80861, E25842, M25898, E25490, W13359, E26208, W1851, W5194, E21095 and E26209

 

The consist is virtually correct unlike the regional allocation for the rake as a whole!

 

Don't forget that different cross-country services belonged to different regions. The Leeds-Penzance and return in the mid 70s was Western Region, the Leeds-Paignton and return was Eastern Region. Manchester-Plymouth rakes were Midland Region. It all adds to the fun!

[leopardml2341]

...............Don't forget that different cross-country services belonged to different regions. The Leeds-Penzance and return in the mid 70s was Western Region, the Leeds-Paignton and return was Eastern Region. Manchester-Plymouth rakes were Midland Region. It all adds to the fun!

 

One I was always keen on was the FO Weymouth - Leeds, not only did it provide some S prefixed stock but also in the early 80's a Class 33 to New Street and 'owt Saltley could muster up for the onward to Leeds.

 

Happy days !

[Dave777]

Great, thanks folks

[ess1uk]

I was wondering about this too.

Luck for me all my stock has a W prefix as I'm interested in that area

[GKPC]

Leopard 2341, are you sure it was Weymouth ? I seem to recall the 1246 FO Portsmouth Harbour - Leeds which was a 33 from Portsmouth to New Street, although I covered it on 21/5/1982 from Banbury when a pair of 73's rolled in - if not out. Could produce all sorts including a 33 (046) from New Street to Leeds. There was also a Weymouth - Leeds in 1983.

[Fat Controller]

Leopard 2341, are you sure it was Weymouth ? I seem to recall the 1246 FO Portsmouth Harbour - Leeds which was a 33 from Portsmouth to New Street, although I covered it on 21/5/1982 from Banbury when a pair of 73's rolled in - if not out. Could produce all sorts including a 33 (046) from New Street to Leeds. There was also a Weymouth - Leeds in 1983.

There was also a Poole- Newcastle at about that time; we used to pick it up at Derby; it was a 47/45 turn, as the stock was steam-heated. Stock included a declassified RFO (with loose chairs), which was the vehicle of choice.

The only NPCCS stock I can think of that changed prefixes were the In-Six-Fishes,( built for the WR, to a GWR design, and transferred to Aberdeen), which had SCxxxW numbers, and a handful of Stanier 50' vans which the Western used for Newspaper Brakes, and branded accordingly.

[Pennine MC]

The only NPCCS stock I can think of that changed prefixes were the In-Six-Fishes,( built for the WR, to a GWR design, and transferred to Aberdeen), which had SCxxxW numbers, and a handful of Stanier 50' vans which the Western used for Newspaper Brakes, and branded accordingly.

 

I'll add to that some W-prefixed LMS CCTs, some BR built Fruit Ds (M920xx) and W-prefixed SPVs ex-Blue Spot. The latter coincidentally came up in conversation yesterday, but I dont think any Blue Spots were reprefixed whilst they were still fish vans - anybody know otherwise?

[Fat Controller]

 

I'll add to that some W-prefixed LMS CCTs, some BR built Fruit Ds (M920xx) and W-prefixed SPVs ex-Blue Spot. The latter coincidentally came up in conversation yesterday, but I dont think any Blue Spots were reprefixed whilst they were still fish vans - anybody know otherwise?

Weren't some of the 'LMS' CCTs built at Swindon post-nationalisation? I thought that the WR (and possibly the LMR) had allocations of 'Blue Spot' fish vans from new; can't find any photographic evidence of this, unfortunately.

[leopardml2341]

Leopard 2341, are you sure it was Weymouth ? I seem to recall the 1246 FO Portsmouth Harbour - Leeds which was a 33 from Portsmouth to New Street, although I covered it on 21/5/1982 from Banbury when a pair of 73's rolled in - if not out. Could produce all sorts including a 33 (046) from New Street to Leeds. There was also a Weymouth - Leeds in 1983.

 

Yep - spot on - was getting mixed up with the Poole - Newcastle referred to in separate post. That used to split at Sheffield - iirc first 3 to leeds. In the summer it started at Weymouth?

 

As for the FO Portsmouth Harbour - best combo I had (date N/K) was a 31 and 25 from New Street to Sheffield, slowest journey behind a single 25, but what a racket coming out of New Street.

 

Anyway best get outta here before I'm told off for being off topic.

 

Andy

[Flood]

 

I'll add to that some W-prefixed LMS CCTs, some BR built Fruit Ds (M920xx) and W-prefixed SPVs ex-Blue Spot. The latter coincidentally came up in conversation yesterday, but I dont think any Blue Spots were reprefixed whilst they were still fish vans - anybody know otherwise?

Weren't some of the 'LMS' CCTs built at Swindon post-nationalisation? I thought that the WR (and possibly the LMR) had allocations of 'Blue Spot' fish vans from new; can't find any photographic evidence of this, unfortunately.

Yep, 37200 to 37244 where built at Swindon though 37200 - 37229, 37234 were Midland Region based in 1976 and 37230-27233, 37235-37244 were on the Western.

 

The only other reallocations for pre-nationalisation NPCCS I know of were six Newspaper Van Siphon Gs that went to the Southern in early 1978 but they were placed in storage around the summer of 1978, plus some of the LMS 50' vans went from the Western to the Eastern at the same time. I'd say that the Western was replacing these Newspaper Vans with the 855xx GUV conversions.

[balders]

 

One I was always keen on was the FO Weymouth - Leeds, not only did it provide some S prefixed stock but also in the early 80's a Class 33 to New Street and 'owt Saltley could muster up for the onward to Leeds.

 

Happy days !

 

Great NB kick out..........whatever was there.......had some nice traction! For a 15 yr old on a Midland railtourer a couple of 40's and some NE 37 power was spot on..........with the obligatory MK1's of course

[D6975]

Scottish Mk2s used to wander well down south on XC services, Plymouth, Poole, Cardiff.

The most unusual set as regards location that I ever saw was a Glasgow-Plymouth relief at Bristol. It was formed of a rake of Sealink liveried mk1s - remember those?

[ess1uk]

I got a Mainline BSK today and noticed it has a M prefix, hope I can get away with it?