Signalling at West Kirby, late 1970, early 1980

[Dmudriver]

Hi

 

I'm building an 0 gauge terminus and the track plan will be closely based on West Kirby on the Wirral at the above time (but excluding the third rail).

 

I'm trying to find out what the signal set-up was on the approach to the station from Birkenhead. I've got photos of the bracket starter signals and the ground discs controlling exit from the platforms and adjacent sidings, but nothing of the approach signalling. All the photos I have seen don't go beyond the overbridge. I've seen a video taken from inside a departing train which could indicate a theatre-type indicator, but it's so fleeting I can't be sure.

 

Any help would be gratefully received. With thanks in advance.

 

Rod

[beast66606]

Straight post semaphore starter on the up (Liverpool) and a straight post semaphore with theatre on the down. Holylakes distant was not too far in advance of the starter.

 

I own the LMS round end nameboard which once adorned the front of the box.

 

The ground discs controlling the setback moves over the trailing crossover where LNWR miniature arms until ca 1981, if you fancy a challenge - see Steves article

I helped the S&T replace them with the discs, my payment was : one of the miniature arms went into the boot of my Capri.

[beast66606]

PS - there are a couple of cab ride videos available which show the signals.

[Dmudriver]

Thanks for that, beast66606. So, it was a theatre indicator! I'll look out for the cab ride videos, but I can get on with my detailed planning now.

 

I've seen Steve's article, thanks. I've built up the 7mm versions of those signals for my current layout, but they're nowhere near as good as Steve's in 4mm. And mine don't even work!! He's inspired me to try and do it now, though!

 

Rod

[flyingsignalman]

Here is my photo of the signal box diagram. This dates from about 1980ish when the additional track circuits (T1, T2, T3) were commissioned.

Its already appeared on the forum in another layout planning thread (3rd Rail Liverpool area - new layout, started Jan 30 2010).

[flyingsignalman]

Just remembered this pic of the down inner home. Its had a new main arm at some time.

[beast66606]

Doh, forgot about the dummy ...

[Dmudriver]

Hi Keith. Thank you for the pictures: I didn't find anything when I searched before starting the thread, but they are exactly what I was looking for! However, I do have some technical questions, if you don't mind:

 

I assume that the boxes referring to signals 37, 38 and 42, 43 on the signal box diagram indicate that the theatre indicator would be illuminated when the calling-on arm was in use? I assume the calling-on arm was purely to allow entry into an already occupied platform - eg when adding a 3-car unit to another to make up a 6-car? Would the calling-on arm be used if the extra unit had come ecs from siding 1? What would be the route, and signals used, for an ecs movement from siding 2 to platform 2 when that was already occupied?

 

About the ground discs: there is one at the bottom of the signal post (no. 30): did that control shunting movements into siding 1 and platforms 1 and 2? There is then a further one (no. 34) which I assume, on the same basis as no.30, controlled shunting movements into platforms 1, 2 and siding 2?

 

If those single signals did control those movements, why are there 2 at the crossover (nos. 44 and 36)? Obviously, 44 is for movements over the crossover and 36 for movements straight ahead but if nos. 30 and 34 each control access to 3 roads, why are 2 needed at that location?

 

Finally, in the photograph signal 30 (this is the one beast66606 refers to as the dummy?) seems to have a flat righthand side. Was it actually like that - and, if so, why? Or is it a quirk of the photo?

 

Hope you both don't mind the questions: I drive DMUs at Llangollen so signalling is a very important part of my life on the railway!! The layout at West Kirby has really intrigued me for years and the more I look the more so it gets!

 

Rod

[beast66606]

I assume that the boxes referring to signals 37, 38 and 42, 43 on the signal box diagram indicate that the theatre indicator would be illuminated when the calling-on arm was in use?

 

correct.

 

I assume the calling-on arm was purely to allow entry into an already occupied platform - eg when adding a 3-car unit to another to make up a 6-car? Would the calling-on arm be used if the extra unit had come ecs from siding 1?

 

Anything dropping onto a train in the platforms had to be called on, if using the down, but note there is no shunt move to the down, they all went to the up, behind 34 or 44/36 discs.

 

What would be the route, and signals used, for an ecs movement from siding 2 to platform 2 when that was already occupied?

 

20 then 34

 

About the ground discs: there is one at the bottom of the signal post (no. 30): did that control shunting movements into siding 1 and platforms 1 and 2?

 

No, siding 1 only

 

There is then a further one (no. 34) which I assume, on the same basis as no.30, controlled shunting movements into platforms 1, 2 and siding 2?

 

Yes it did, but No.30 did not.

 

If those single signals did control those movements, why are there 2 at the crossover (nos. 44 and 36)? Obviously, 44 is for movements over the crossover and 36 for movements straight ahead but if nos. 30 and 34 each control access to 3 roads, why are 2 needed at that location?7

 

Probably to emphasise the difference in speed over the connections, remember West Kirby once had another station, the layout was far more complex than the latter diagram.

 

Finally, in the photograph signal 30 (this is the one beast66606 refers to as the dummy?) seems to have a flat righthand side. Was it actually like that - and, if so, why? Or is it a quirk of the photo?

 

Quirk, it's behind the SPT.

 

The layout at West Kirby has really intrigued me for years and the more I look the more so it gets!

 

Keith and I worked out the full diagram for when the Joint Lines station was open, although I now have an inspectors book which contains it.

 

Sadly I didn't work West Kirby very much, it's probably the box I worked least of all the local ones.

[flyingsignalman]

A couple of points (?!)

The signal you and Beast refer to as 30 was fact worked by lever 39. The small size of the photo making it difficult to see (I had to check out the original to confirm this!).

Trains shunting from siding 1 to platforms 1 or 2 and vice versa would stop by signal 34 normally; if going into siding 2 would stop by 44/36. Some drivers always shunted out to 44/36 from siding 1 no matter which route they heading for.

With 34 controlling 3 routes it wouldn't have been the first time a train was shunted back where it had come from!

All shunts from siding 2 would stop by 44/36, getting 34 then 36 to shunt back into the station.

The box had 65 levers, by the time of the photo, levers 1 - 15, 18,30, 31, 32, 35, 40 and 45 -65 were spare.

Signal 44 also used to signal trains onto the Joint line to Hooton.

[Dmudriver]

Thanks, beast 66606. That's perfect - just what I needed. Now to get my new shed built and the layout installed!! In the meantime I can pipe dream about the movements in the station!

[Dmudriver]

Just as I was replying to beast, yours came in, Keith! Thanks for that.

 

The answers from both of you have been really helpful and I've now got a really good picture of how the station worked. My model will feature DMUs (surprise, surprise!) and some loco-hauled stock, but I'll use the same signalling and procedures as you've described. I don't plan to put the crossovers back in for the locohauled stock - I'll use another engine to free the train engine.

 

Thanks again.

 

Rod

[flyingsignalman]

The normal off peak working at the station was to use platform 2.

This was mainly due to the fact that using platform 2 required point levers 22, 26, 24 and FPL27 reverse then signals 41 & 37 cleared. For a train to depart only needed FPL 27 and points 24 putting to normal and then FPL 23 reverse with signals 16 & 19 cleared.

 

A train into platform 1 needed points 22, 26 and FPL 27 reverse (& signals 41 & 38 cleared) and to leave needed all of those putting to normal and FPL25 reversed when signals could be 17 & 19 cleared.

Using platform 2 also left platform 1 clear in case of service disruption. (heaven forbid!!).

 

Trains coupling up in the platform, thus requiring the calling on arm, would have signal 41 cleared, when we knew the train had passed it, the signal would be put back to danger and when the train was "at or nearly at a stand" (to quote the rule book) signal 42 or 43 could be cleared. The outer home and the calling on signal could not be cleared together.

[beast66606]

Using platform 2 also left platform 1 clear in case of service disruption. (heaven forbid!!).

 

 

T clarify this a bit, what Keith means (I hope) is if the normal train is in P2 but another arrives, the second can still arrive in P1 without any conflicting routes, if the normal train was in P1 the second train cannot get to P2 without blocking P1.

[Dmudriver]

Gentlemen. Yet more information! I'll have no excuse for not running the layout prototypically now!! Thank you again.

 

Keith, you mentioned that the photo of the signal box diagram had appeared in another thread (3rd Rail Liverpool area - new layout, started Jan 30 2010). I just cannot find that thread - have you any advice as to how to?

Rod

[flyingsignalman]

Gentlemen. Yet more information! I'll have no excuse for not running the layout prototypically now!! Thank you again.

 

Keith, you mentioned that the photo of the signal box diagram had appeared in another thread (3rd Rail Liverpool area - new layout, started Jan 30 2010). I just cannot find that thread - have you any advice as to how to?

Rod

 

I put West Kirby in the search box. When another page opened saying one or more of the words had less than six letters I put "West Kirby"(complete with quotation marks) in the search box and came up with a list of threads; there was at least one other layout planned with West Kirby in mind. I'm not sure how to put a link in from another forum page to this one so I quoted the full title of the thread instead.

[beast66606]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/8706-3rd-rail-liverpool-area-new-layout

 

hth

[Dmudriver]

Thanks Keith and beast for the replies. Some more useful photos there.

 

 

Rod

[beast66606]

I've got most of the signals I think, not sure if the photos are with me in East Anglia, if they are I will scan them for you.

[Dmudriver]

I've got most of the signals I think, not sure if the photos are with me in East Anglia, if they are I will scan them for you.

I'd be grateful if you could, please, beast. I've decided I'd like to get the station looking as much like west Kirby as I can, even if, in model operations, the traffic patterns and even location are not strictly West Kirby. I'd like to fit in a parcels depot somehow - or at least storage sidings for a parcels depot further up the line (I've got an 03 and a lot of NPCCS vehicles I'd like to use). Possibly on the site of the former goods yard - but I need to give that more thought as I don't want to spoil the look of the place.

 

Have you any idea how wide the platform was? If I model it narrower than scale then that would affect the scale size of the bracket the platform starter signals were on.

 

Rod

[beast66606]

The platform wasn't huge, probably 10' ?? (needs confirming).

 

You could pretend the Cadburys traffic (at Moreton) was a parcels depot and run the parcels into the station, run it round and then back out again, Cadburys was only accessible from the Liverpool bound line, so needed a run round.

If you have room you could keep the joint line station (derelict and oou) and use this for running round (it was an island platform), it would make the layout wider though - just some thoughts.

[flyingsignalman]

A few more pics for you.

First, a thought regarding a possible parcels depot. There used to be an additional siding next to 1 siding, It was also used for stabling stock. You could perhaps use this for a parcels depot imagining it to be in place of the fire station that is actually there. A crossover could be reinstated between platform 1 and siding 1.

This pic from the 1970s shows the siding with fire station under construction on the left.

The "eye of faith" can just about make out where it has been erased from the diagram (to the left of disc 28).

Some more signals

This is No 39 and shows the remains of the bracket signal that was replaced by the signal shown in my earlier post.

Discs 44 (top) and 36. The white diamonds on the red band signifies to the driver that the line is track cicuited.

Disc 34, no track circuit so no diamond

Distant view of the up starter No19.

Interior of the box.

Down train arrives.

A view of the station from the box steps. It might help you to judge the platform width.

[beast66606]

I remember helping to install 44 and 36 ... the LNWR ones preceeded them !

 

The platform is wider than I remembered ... it looks about 10' at the ramp but widening down to the buildings.

[Dmudriver]

Keith, thank you for the photos and thanks also to you and beast for the suggestions about the parcels activity. I'm favouring beast's suggestion about a depot at Moreton, with access only from the Liverpool bound line. However, I won't install a crossover between plat 1 and siding 1 as I will assume there is normally access to the depot from the down direction, but for some reason, that access is not in use at the moment. That'll enable me to use my 03 (sent over from Birkenhead) to release the train locos.

 

I'll have the 2 sidings alongside platform 1 and will have a preserved railway depot kicking back off the outer one. I've an Ivatt 2-6-2T and 3 push-pull coaches (set up as "The Welsh Dragon") that I want to run!!

 

I'll aim to keep the seaward side of the station as close to the prototype as I can. I'd like to say I'll keep you informed, but it's going to be Spring before much is done (I need anew shed first!), although that gives me plenty of time for planning!

 

Thanks for your help - I really appreciate it.

 

Rod

[Dmudriver]

Hi all.

 

I'm back, reopening this thread with a couple more questions, I'm afraid!!

 

 

 

I've firmed up the layout for my model now: it will be as per the above picture from Flyingsignalman, except that I am inserting another point to creat a third siding on the left: there will be a kick back from that siding into a preserved railway site to the left of the pile of sleepers.

 

The questions concern the ground signals. Although it can't be seen in the photo above, I have another picture in a book entitled "Merseyside Electrics" taken from the same viewpoint, but with a longer lens (I assume). This shows one ground signal controlling the exit from the 2 sidings on the left. It is between the toe of the facing point and the toe of the catch point, It can also be seen in the photo of the signal box panel above (again by Flyingsignalman). The disc is no.28 and the point 29. Also can be seen (just, because it's very faint!) the outline of the lefthand siding The siding was obviously taken out before the picture of the panel was taken. This, to me, confirms there was just the one signal controlling exit from 2 sidings. Was that arrangement common?

 

So, question 1: in my modelling scenario, a train in the 3rd siding on the left coming out onto the mainline has a facing point in front ot it: left route to the main line, straight on into the preservation site. Would a ground signal be needed here? I am assuming that point will be hand operated and locked to the left route - the lock being released by the bobby for entry/exit to the preservation site.

 

Whether there is a ground signal there or not, would signal 28 then control exit from 3 sidings?

 

Question 2: in real life, would a movement from any of the 3 sidings (2 to the left and one to the right of the platforms) onto the main line, travelling beyond signal 19 ( the section signal) receive authority to approach signal 19 purely from the clearing of the ground signal, bearing in mind that trains departing from the platform roads are cleared by either of signals 16 or 17?

 

Looking forward to your responses.

 

Rod

 

PS I could have my new shed up and useable in less than a month, pointwork being built for me and available not long after that (hopefully!!) so I could be up and running as Spring arrives (climate change permitting!!).