GWR Pannier next a 57xx and a 5205

[Darwinian]

With the 850 pretty much complete my next pannier project is for an early 57xx, pretty much in as built condition circa 1930.

 

I wanted to produce a good model reasonably cheaply so I've gone for a Replica body (which cost about 12 quid at Peterborough show a cople of years ago) married to the High level chassis kit built with CSBs.

I have got some old wheels that should fit the bill as long as they don't slip on their axles when reassembled.

 

The chassis build is detailed on another thread and I intend to largely copy that so this is about how I backdated the body moulding.

 

Modifications are:

Cut away back of moulding under tanks to separate tank suport stool. Injectors replaced in full 3d (Gibson) a little nearer the footplate edge.

Injector overflow pipe down through footplate.

Remove top feed apparatus.

Remove bunker side steps and associated handrails.

Re shape Dome

New: whistles onto cab front sheet (Gibson), chimney (247 developments) smokebox dart (Gibson), handrails as neccessary, fire iron loops on bunker, lamp brackets, buffers (not yet decided on these).

Remove cab doors and add original style pillar handrail to front cab sideheet.

Replace moulded coal.

Add sanding operating linkage.

Fit new firebox sides behind new details.

Detail the cab inside.

 

Here are some pictures of work so far.

 

Cab area:

 

Injector pipework replaced/removed from alignment over the footplate edge:

 

Top-feed pipework removed, the hole was filled with black Milliput. The replacement brass tank vent is only there because I pinged one off into the carpet :

 

Once the remaining bits are on I'll put up a picture in works grey.

 

Adrian

 

[Miss Prism]

If it's not too late, suggest rub the welding ribs off the tank.

 

Btw, do you find the 247 chimney an improvement?

[The Fatadder]

Looks really good, look forward to seeing more.

 

Don't suppose you have the part number for the new injector? I tried ordering one for mine but somehow managed to order the wrong part!

 

Another good modification I didn't see mentioned is changing the rear window bars for an etch, iirc from mainly trains. Got the idea from Paul marshal potters blog, which made a big improvement allowing the glazing behind the bars.

[Horsetan]

Beware of some of the Mainly Trains' detail etches. The lamp irons etch in particular is way overscale for 4mm, and wouldn't look out of place on a 7mm scale engine.

[Darwinian]

If it's not too late, suggest rub the welding ribs off the tank.

 

Btw, do you find the 247 chimney an improvement?

 

Thanks Miss P.

 

Yes I've been thinking about doing that. The handrail isn't fixed yet so I probably will do it. As to the chimney, I looked long and hard at several photo's of the early engines in the period I'm modelling and felt that the Replica one was a  bit too tapered in towards the bottom although they did seem to vary a bit. Possibly because they were hand made or an artefact of the photography. Anyway I decided the 247 one was closer to the pictures.

 

Looks really good, look forward to seeing more.

 

Don't suppose you have the part number for the new injector? I tried ordering one for mine but somehow managed to order the wrong part!

 

Another good modification I didn't see mentioned is changing the rear window bars for an etch, iirc from mainly trains. Got the idea from Paul marshal potters blog, which made a big improvement allowing the glazing behind the bars.

 

Sorry I don't at the moment but I'll look in the bin (just the loft one)  and see if I can find the packaging memo to self.

I haven't decided what to do about the glazing bars either, but it was something I'd considered but forgotten thanks for reminding me.

[Darwinian]

Looks really good, look forward to seeing more.

 

Don't suppose you have the part number for the new injector? I tried ordering one for mine but somehow managed to order the wrong part!

 

Another good modification I didn't see mentioned is changing the rear window bars for an etch, iirc from mainly trains. Got the idea from Paul marshal potters blog, which made a big improvement allowing the glazing behind the bars.

 

Well Fatadder I've recovered the relevant packet and the injectors are 4M717 which checks out in Gibson's catalogue as GWR Pannier injectors x2  .

 

To get them to fit I cut the pipe that goes down through the footplate just long enough to reach through to the bottom of the footplate moulding. I filed a rounded edge onto the bottom of the pipe and drilled a hole in the footplate, working from below, just a little oversize. With the firebox side representation and moulded injector cut away (I'd already done this) I marked the position of the pipe into the tank on the inside. Drilled (at an angle obviouslyas the footplate is in the way) a hole just larger than this pipe in position and then using a fine pointed scalpel blade opened this up to make a slot that reaches to the inside of the moulding. Carefully cut the pipes into the cab short enough to just fit tight up against the cab front sheet. Working from the inside, put the lower pipe in the hole in the footplate, the curved edge means it can be pivoted into position, then stand the injector up pushing the upper pipe into the slot. Mine aren't perfect but look OK to the naked eye.

 

I also found in my spares box the etches for the cab rear from my Martin Finney 1864 pannier tank which I built as open cab. The etched rear plate seems to be exactly the same as the 57xx one and I even found the very fine etched grills to go over the porthole windows. I will try these to see how they look as I remove the moulded coal.

 

The moulded ribs on the pannier tanks are now no more  .

 

Adrian

[The Fatadder]

Thanks for that

Will get one ordered next time I buy wheels!

[Darwinian]

Not a lot of progress as the vegetable plot has needed a some TLC and I've been busy with work. Hoever I have made a start on sorting out the cab rear sheet.

 

As noted above I have a left over cab rear sheet from a Finney pannier tank that I am going to use to provide a finer section and neater etched grills. As mentioned above you could just replace the moulded window bars with an etch but as I had the bits I thought I'd use them.

 

Here is the outside face of the back sheet with the tunnel for the handbrake handle. The inside has etched detail, such as the bunker doors and thier hinges as well.

 

 

To fit this I had to prise off the bunker (very firmly glued in place on mine but it did come off with a bit of persuasion). I've then cut away the supports that reached up to the ends of the side sheet extensions. The cast bunker weight is being kept but I cut a slot in it (with a junior hacksaw) that the new back sheet sits into to help locate it. I just need to file back the cab side projections a little to get the rear sheet vertical. As you can see I have also cut away the moulded coal. I did this by cutting down the sides using a fine saw and then chain drilling along the back edge. The coal was carefully snapped out and the resulting mess tidied up with files and scalpel.

 

 

 

I will probably take off the handbrake handle and replace it with something a little smaller as there is no way it would fit inside the tunnel and with the more open cab design it's going to show.

 

Taking the bunker off also makes it easier to get at the end of the cab side sheet to put on a pillar type handrail so that will be the next job to tackle.

 

Adrian

[Darwinian]

Think it's about time I updated on this one. I've been battling with improvements to my fiddle yard but took a break to do a bit more to the 57xx. I've made the hornblocks for the High Level chassis.

 

Progress on the body is limited to the cab. New stanchions for the cab doorways, as built, rather than handrails on the cab sides. To fit these I filed away a short section of the cab opening beading to fix in the extension piece to the top of the stanchion. The stanchion was made by running a piece on 1mm dia. brass rod in my mini drill and holding it against an oilstone to gradually produce the tap. The end of a length of brass strip was drilled 0.4mm  and the top of the stanchion soldered in.

 

Here's the result:

 

 

These were fixed with epoxy to the cab with a shallow hole drilled alongside the cab opening to provide a location for the lower end.

 

With a front bulkhead and new floor of 0.5mm black plasticard the assembled cab now looks like this.

 

 

I'll have to get on with the chassis now.

 

 

[Darwinian]

Progress has slowed now due to work pressures. I've made a start on the chassis and blasted a bit of rattle can primer at the body to see what still needs fettling.

 

First up the tank tops showing that a bit more sanding is needed to smooth out where the top feed used to be. This is proving really awkward to get at without carving lumps off the boiler fittings. I might have to resort to the fireman leaving the fire irons on top of the tanks to cover it up a bit.

 

Should there actually be those two round lumps just behind the smokebox?

 

 

Although only pushed into place (slightly askew) this front view shows the reduced taper of the 247Dev chimney. Personally I prefer this to the rather over tapered Replica original and it doesn't have the rather crude join to the flare.

 

 

The reworked cab has had a floor and backplate face added in plasticard and the wheel arches extended (rather crudely but it won't really show). Cab doorway stanchions are fitted but need fairing in better. The cab opening has been chamfered (as per Ian Rice ideas) to make it appear thinner.

 

 

That view reminded me that I have forgotten to file in the cut out in the running plate where the doorway is.

 

Finally I decided the cab looked too bare without the springs for the rear wheels so I knocked some up from fret waste, 0.7mm brass wire and 15amp fuse wire. They are a bit rough and ready and only approximately sized but seen through the cab's doorways, crew's legs etc. they should do. Not a lot of room in 00 so I'll have to fudge the position of the reversing lever or there will be no space for the fireman to reach the firebox door.

 

 

I'll post more once the chassis is well under way.

 

 

[Horsetan]

...... I have a left over cab rear sheet from a Finney pannier tank .....

The inside motion from the same kit can also be used in the 57xx/8750

[Darwinian]

The inside motion from the same kit can also be used in the 57xx/8750

 

True Horsetan, however the High Level Kits chassis includes dummy inside motion so I'll be using that. I think it is possible to fit it even in 00. I'll be using the narrow bearings on the driven axle. I'm hoping I can fit the dummy motion over the normal size bearings on the other axles.

[Darwinian]

I know it's been a while since I posted on the 57xx  but I've been a bit distracted by other projects . Over the holiday period I finally got the Mojo to finish the track wiring on my layout. Now the proud owner of a fully working three way point connection to sidings. It only took two attempts too  .

 

Anyway I have been gradully progressing with the chassis for the 57xx. This is the High Level kit but I'm trying it with CSBs and all in "00". Why  ?

Just to prove I can of course  .

 

Anyway the adapting of the chassis kit is described elsewhere in this forum so I'm not going into any detail here. 

 

Here is a picture of progress so far. CSB wires not inserted in this case.

 

 

The kit goes together really well. I have left off some of the overlays on the inside valve gear as it really will be hard to see when the model is complete; rather wish I'd put some rod pegs in the alignment holes though, just in case they can be seen.

 

Adrian

[6892 Oakhill Grange]

Darwinian

 

Nice work on the body of the 57xx. I tried similar on a Mainline body a few years back and caused too much damage removing the top feed piping to continue. My second attempt on a Bachmann 8750 has proved better although I may stop and move onto a third one (third time lucky). What tools and techniques did you use to remove the piping?

 

Otherwise my plans are very similar to yours

 

BTW my other project at the moment is a Gibson 0850 pannier.

 

Oaky

[Darwinian]

Thanks for the kind words Oaky.

 

If I remember rightly I removed the pipework using a combination of a chisel bit in a modelling knife (I've now snapped that blade, must get another), a No.10 scalpel blade, a bur of some sort in my mini drill (although that's a bit drastic and tends to melt the plastic) followed by lots of carefull work with needle files and small strips of wet and dry paper wrapped and stuck around old lolly stick.

 

The hole where the topfeed was was filled with a blob of Milliput from below and roughly shaped. The dints and scrapes left over were filled with Squadron green stuff and then most recently Revell plastic filler.

 

Good luck with yours. No time at the moment to work on mine but I will get it done.

 

Adrian

[Darwinian]

After a long pause while I worked on the layout in my limited free time, I've got back to work on the 57xx.

 

The plasticard extensions to the cab splashers didn't really work so I cut the whole splasher top away with a piercing saw and made new tops from brass sheet, held in place with epoxy glue they are much neater and stronger.

 

The cab detailing is coming together nicely. I added the lever on the brake valve and a regulator handle to the Gibson backhead.

 

Here is a view of the modified cab end.

 

 

The chassis is nearly done. The wheels are an old set and a bit too loose on the axles to use so I'll be getting some new ones at railex I hope.

 

 

I decided to use the earlier twin hanger arrangement for the brakes but kept the full length middle layer for strength. I didn't read the instructions carefully enough and soldered a short stub of wire into the top pivot of the first couple, as shown in the exploded diagram in the instructions, before realising that this needs to be long enough to fit into the hole in the frames and support the hanger.

 

 

Next up is finishing the brake gear and fitting the gearbox and wheels. Then I'll have to figure out how to attach the springs so that they can be removed to let the hornblocks drop out.

 

Unless I get distracted by scenics again.

 

Adrian

[Darwinian]

More progress to report at last.

 

The small details are underway on the body. Lamp irons, fire iron brackets from No.10 staples. Hopefully the slightluy oversize holes will be less obvious once the undercoat is completed.

 

The sanding levers are copied from those on the preserved example at Didcot using photo's taken at last year's RMWebbers tour.

 

To add some weight I poured liquid lead into the panniers and then sealed it in with a 0.5mm thick plasticard blanking plate. I had to seal around the edges of this to stop the liquid lead running out, and used Revell filler to do this. It looks messy but won't be seen. I could have packed more in but wnated to leave a ltiile extra space inside the body shell. Because of the small size of the liquid lead pellets I haven't out in any venilation holes. Hopefullly there won't be any problem with distortion due to the solvents used becoming trapped inside. The lead can still move around a bit so should not cause any expansion problems.

 

The chassis is now complete except for the gear train and motor. I decided toreplace the salvaged wheelset as the crankpins were a bit short an the grip on the axles poor.

 

Hopefully I''ll get to the undercoating stage by the end of the week.

[Darwinian]

Time for a post summer holiday update I think  .

 

The chassis is now running (although without pickups as yet) and everything is coming together. The filler handles were a bit tricky  . in the end I used some fine phosphour-bronze wire for the handle with a single strand from some 1mm multicore layout wire folded around, twisted and soldered to make the upstand. The results are nice and fine but easily bent out of vertical (as you can see on the photos  ). Hopefully they won't break too easily.

 

Here are some views now that it is in Post 1928 GWR green (I'm assuming they wre built after this colour came in). The Green is sprayed with my basic airbrush and the black painted by hand with Revell Satin black enamel. It still needs a bit of tidying up as well as the buffer beams picking out before transfers and varnish can go on.

 

 

 

 

The gearbox is a very tight squeexe between the srpung axle boxes. I hope that there is enough movement for the springing to work. I probably should have  thinned the axle bearings in the gearbox right down to be sure. 

 

Wheels are Gibson and were put on with a GW models wheel press, perfect running at the first attempt   Never managed that until I had the press.

 

Adrian

[Darwinian]

Well I haven't given up, I've just had a few problems.

 

Getting the brake gear onto the chassis without shorting everything out and squeezing the pickups around it was a bit of a headache but I think I've probably done it.

 

Then came putting on the sand pipes. The front ones curl all around the brake hangers but there is just room and they look like this (brakes removed).

 

 

Unless I missed it there is no mention in the kit on how to attach the rear sand pipes. Etches to represent the sandboxes fit behind the steps on the loco body. However on the real thing the real pipes pass behind the brake pull rod and between the rearmost brake cross shaft/operating crank and the wheel rim. I managed this by attaching a piece of rod across the frames and bending to shape. That way they stay as part of the chassis rather than dangling below the removed body just asking to be bent or knocked off.

 

However running tests produced a repeated short as the suspension moved.

 

I have had to admit defeat and go for a "near as I can get" solution which was to leave the pipes behind the brake rigging as seen here

 

 

Nearly there now.

 

Adrian

 

[Darwinian]

Well the satin varnish coat came out rather orange peel but it's not too noticeable from a distance, Sometimes my airbrushing just doesn't come out right. Maybe I should use a rattle can varnish at least as I can't see what is going on when i spray varnish.

 

Anyway here's the 57xx ready for weathering (which will have to wait for some warmer weather). If it looks slightly wonky it's because i lost the bolt I'd shortened to hold the chassis at the front and haven't made a new one yet. It does sit down flat honest. After much fiddling with brake clearances as mentioned above it runs nice and smoothly.

 

 

Adrian

[Darwinian]

I'd like to know what people think about this. I'm starting on backdating a Hornby 5205 to 1929 condition. I'll put it here for now but my question is: Would it be better to re-title this thread as a workbench, move the 5205 to RTR modification area or leave things as they are?

 

Having taken my 5205 apart to see if I could get a TrainTech sound capsule in (I could but only by doing some surgery to the tank weights and there appeared to be a rattle that might not disappear) I've finally started on the butchery. I have a brassmasters detailing kit to fit too.

 

The big jobs on this one are, making the bunker back straight with no indent and removing the cab shutters (not fitted until the early 30s so far as I can find out).

 

Because I bought a reduced price BR one from the first batch I've got some extra work to do on the smokebox door too. I'm planning on leaving the mechanics alone for the time being although I have drifted the wheels out to 14.8mm Back to Back as they run through my pointwork better like that.

 

The bunker was dealt with first. Cab roof carefully removed (needed to cut through the glue bond along one side only). Coal removed by carefully levering out with a small screwdriver. I also took the glazing and backhead out while I was at it. Pull off the lamp iron and its top guard plate. Razor saw down either side of flat and cut across with a sharp knife to remove. Same again for curved part. Tidy up with files.

 

 

Then it was out with the chisel bladed craft knife, wet and dry paper and another pointed knife.

 

Now you see it:

 

Now you don't.

 

And a plainer smokebox door.

 

Adrian

 

 

[Quarryscapes]

That pannier has come out very well indeed, I'm in the process of removing top feed on one of mine, hasn't turned out as neat as your but I'm happy. Taken all day! 

[Darwinian]

That pannier has come out very well indeed, I'm in the process of removing top feed on one of mine, hasn't turned out as neat as your but I'm happy. Taken all day! 

 

Patience is the key, don't rush it and keep going back for another look.

 

I am pleasantly surprised how much mine can pull, must be the suspension as there isn't a lot of weight in the side tanks.

 

Good luck with yours Quarryscapes and do post pictures for us to see. I won't do any more on mine until the temperature in the spray booth (garden) warms up and I can start weathering it.

[Darwinian]

More damage and some additions to the 5205 now that the pannier and my ROD are both pretty much done.

 

Firstly the lack of the washout plug (?) fittings on top of the boiler was commented on elsewhere. The front two are represented by simple holes but the back two are absent. Alan Gibson do these but I decided to make my own.

A piece of brass tubing forms the hole and its slight raised lip. The plug is from brass wire that is a snug fit in the tube.

File the end of the wire square, then file back the length so that about 1.5mm is left of the square bit.

Slightly reduce the diameter of the tube by spinning it in some fine wet and dry/emery. A drill bit the same size as the tube (1.5mm I think) was then spun in the end of the tube to dish it. Finish off by putting a curve on the outside edge of the tube top and smooth off the end squarely.

Cut 2 - 3mm off the tube and slide it onto the prepared wire. Cut the wire off at the back leaving the square section a little below the prepared tube end. Carefully fit into suitable holes in the loco body leaving the tube end fractionally proud. Possibly a little over scale here but look OK to me.

 

Here are the bits for the second one propped up next to the first fitted.

 

 

 

Secondly  I realised that 5223 (it has an identity now I've got some plates) should have a tall safety valve bonnet in my 1929-1930 period.

 

The Hornby one is an additional fitting but mine was stuck in rather well. Firm pressure from below with a small flat screwdriver did the trick but left a small piece of one side of the topfeed to be removed.

 

 

 

Unfortunately i don't have any suitable topfeed/safety valve covers in my box of bits so I'll have to source one.

I think Gibson do one.

 

[Darwinian]

Further work on the 5205 2-8-0T will be covered in the thread in the RMWeb Build a loc challenge.

 

In the meantime here is 5763 earning her keep bringing the empties up the valley.

 

 

 

Must get that cab roof settled down more.