BR Lined Green with Early Crest

[Brinkly]

Hi chaps,

 

This is probably a doddle for someone to answer, when did BR introduced lined green on locomotive such as 14xx, 45xx and 64xx? I've noticed that Bachmann are producing 4585 in BR lined green with the early crest, was this common?

 

My main modelling period is May-September 1956 and I was wondering if I could sneak one to my fleet!

 

And before Taz says it, no I probably don't need any more, however having a back up is always good!

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

Nick

[Karhedron]

The WR started using green on mixed traffic engines almost as soon as it was allowed. I believe the first examples were either late 1955 or early 1956. If you are modelling the summer of 56 I am sure you could justify one. 5529 was another example I know off the top of my head. The window was not that long before the late crest was introduced, however those locos so painted often carried it for some years before getting another repaint.

[Taz]

And before Taz says it, no I probably don't need any more, however having a back up is always good!

 

You don't need another one.

 

I'm beginning to think your entire collection consists of 45XX/4575 and Well Tanks..............

[Brinkly]

The WR started using green on mixed traffic engines almost as soon as it was allowed. I believe the first examples were either late 1955 or early 1956. If you are modelling the summer of 56 I am sure you could justify one. 5529 was another example I know off the top of my head. The window was not that long before the late crest was introduced, however those locos so painted often carried it for some years before getting another repaint.

 

Brilliant thank you!

 

You don't need another one.

 

I'm beginning to think your entire collection consists of 45XX/4575 and Well Tanks..............

 

I thought I could have a Beattie Well Tank gala on Horrabridge once it's built!

 

Regards,

 

Nick

[The Stationmaster]

Not so brilliant as you hoped Nick. Sorry to rain black paint on your parade (and motive power) but the WR Instruction to paint certain locos in green were issued in November 1956 with lining only to be applied to 'certain mainline passenger classes' - smaller mixed traffic and passenger locos were to be painted plain green. A further Instruction dated 25 January 1957 extened permission to line out to all classes which were being painted green in accordance with the earlier Instruction (information from Eric Mountford's published work).

 

Wanna buy a 1957 calendar?

[jjnewitt]

Not so brilliant as you hoped Nick. Sorry to rain black paint on your parade (and motive power) but the WR Instruction to paint certain locos in green were issued in November 1956 with lining only to be applied to 'certain mainline passenger classes' - smaller mixed traffic and passenger locos were to be painted plain green. A further Instruction dated 25 January 1957 extened permission to line out to all classes which were being painted green in accordance with the earlier Instruction (information from Eric Mountford's published work).

 

Wanna buy a 1957 calendar?

 

That's interesting that the order came that late. Certainly repaints of the mixed traffic classes had already begun by then. For example 7828 recieved the lined green livery during an overhaul in July 1956 and County of Hereford was in lined green by the same date. Fountains Hall was in lined green by April of the same year and there were certainly many others before November 1956. Perhaps it was a case of the management belatedly authorising what Swindon were already doing?

[kandc_au]

Hi chaps,

 

This is probably a doddle for someone to answer, when did BR introduced lined green on locomotive such as 14xx, 45xx and 64xx? I've noticed that Bachmann are producing 4585 in BR lined green with the early crest, was this common?

 

My main modelling period is May-September 1956 and I was wondering if I could sneak one to my fleet!

 

And before Taz says it, no I probably don't need any more, however having a back up is always good!

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

Nick

 

Nick,

Remember sometimes you need a backup for the failed backup.

You can never have to many 45XX's

 

Khris

[Karhedron]

Not so brilliant as you hoped Nick. Sorry to rain black paint on your parade (and motive power) but the WR Instruction to paint certain locos in green were issued in November 1956 with lining only to be applied to 'certain mainline passenger classes' - smaller mixed traffic and passenger locos were to be painted plain green.

Apologies, I think I must have been a year out.

[The Stationmaster]

That's interesting that the order came that late. Certainly repaints of the mixed traffic classes had already begun by then. For example 7828 recieved the lined green livery during an overhaul in July 1956 and County of Hereford was in lined green by the same date. Fountains Hall was in lined green by April of the same year and there were certainly many others before November 1956. Perhaps it was a case of the management belatedly authorising what Swindon were already doing?

It could possibly be.

 

Maybe that Swindon (assuming they were responsible?) were giving it a try before issuing a general Instruction as I would certainly trust Eric Mountford on dates as he was usually scrupulous on recording detail and checking it before giving voice to it (in fact he could express some quite strong views when people got detail wrong as I once heard at a meeting regarding thoughts of presenting as part of the GW150 exhibition a 94XX in a livery it had never worn in service - honour was satisfied in various directions by agreeing to ask the owner to temporarily renumber the loco - using a number which I suggested as the original loco with it had been one of our local branch engines at one time; alas all not to be as the GW 150 exhibition was cancelled).

[jjnewitt]

It could possibly be.

 

Maybe that Swindon (assuming they were responsible?) were giving it a try before issuing a general Instruction as I would certainly trust Eric Mountford on dates as he was usually scrupulous on recording detail and checking it before giving voice to it (in fact he could express some quite strong views when people got detail wrong as I once heard at a meeting regarding thoughts of presenting as part of the GW150 exhibition a 94XX in a livery it had never worn in service - honour was satisfied in various directions by agreeing to ask the owner to temporarily renumber the loco - using a number which I suggested as the original loco with it had been one of our local branch engines at one time; alas all not to be as the GW 150 exhibition was cancelled).

 

I certainly wouldn't question the dates that the orders were given. It would be interesting to know just who authorised the initial repaints and also who issued the instructions, whether they came from the WR or perhaps higher up?

 

From looking through a few books it would seem that the pracitse was quite widespread before November 1956 particularly with regard to the Counties, Halls and the Manors. In Portraits of Western 4-6-0's by Holden and Leech there is a picture of 1003 dated 1955 in lined green and in the same book there's the photo of 7828 on a running in turn from Swindon on 2nd August 1956 in lined green that I alluded to in my previous post. According to Peto's Register 7828 was the first to recieve the livery but from then on all Manors were repainted lined green with 7805 being the next in August '56. In Great Western 4-6-0s there are photos 7904 (21st April 1956), 5907 (25th August 1956), 1010 (25th August 1956) and 1017 (7th July 1956) all in lined green. There's also a lovely colour picture of 6994 in Working Steam: Collett and Hawksworth Halls dated 21st April 1956 in lined green. Whilst I wouldn't necesarily trust all the dates for all those pictures they do raise the question as to how it all took place.

 

It wouldn't completely suprise me if parts of the WR had decided it had had enough of the black livery (it never looked right on the mixed traffic classes) and it was going to repaint everything green and the mangement had to cover itself by issuing formal instrucions. After all the WR wasn't averse to ploughing it's own furrow or getting it's own way eg. the diesel hydraulics. Or perhaps it was all a case of someone agreeing to the repaints, the works getting on with it after having been given verbal permission and the paperwork taking time to filter through the system? Would be interesting to know though.

[Rugd1022]

Without digging them all out, from memory there are a few 45xxs in lined green / early crest livery in the appropriate Bradford Barton GW books, notably the West Country and Branchline albums. Peter Gray's colour portfolio books on GW steam are also well worth a look...

[The Stationmaster]

I certainly wouldn't question the dates that the orders were given. It would be interesting to know just who authorised the initial repaints and also who issued the instructions, whether they came from the WR or perhaps higher up?

 

The Instructions would have been issued from Swindon - Caerphilly painted locos in accordance with them so didn't start turning out locos in green until it had received the authority to do so.

[jjnewitt]

The Instructions would have been issued from Swindon - Caerphilly painted locos in accordance with them so didn't start turning out locos in green until it had received the authority to do so.

 

Thanks for that. I wasn't sure if it came from directly from Swindon or perhaps from the somewhere in the BTC.

[cary hill]

Details noted from a letter published in the June'75 RM. Almost 100% certain that the writer is currently a very active RMWebber.

 

"A few sample dates for the initial reappearance in green are listed below:-

 

11.55 Modified Hall 6997 - lined green - repainted Swindon

1.56 County 1000 - lined green - repainted Swindon

4.56 Moguls 6372 and 6385 - green - repainted Swindon

8.56 Halls 4918 and 4981 - lined green - repainted Swindon

8.56 Manor 7828 - lined green - repainted Swindon

8.56 Grange 6855 - lined green - repainted Swindon

early '57 0-6-0 2207 - green - repainted Newton Abbot

2.57 0-6-0PT 6430 - green - repainted ?

4.57 0-6-2T 6659 - green - repainted Caerphilly

mid '57 2-6-2T 4547 - lined green - repainted Newton Abbot (still in GW green at the time)"

 

Some of this ties in well with previous thread entries.

 

Presumably all or the majority of the above would have received the early BR totem, as the new emblem apparently didn't appear in any quantity until well into 1957, despite it's introduction in July 1956.

[Karhedron]

 

"A few sample dates for the initial reappearance in green are listed below:-

 

4.56 Moguls 6372 and 6385 - green - repainted Swindon

I believe these 2 locos received lined green livery for royal train work. It was more elaborate than the standard version of lined green and included panels on the tender tops.

[jjnewitt]

Details noted from a letter published in the June'75 RM. Almost 100% certain that the writer is currently a very active RMWebber.

 

"A few sample dates for the initial reappearance in green are listed below:-

 

8.56 Grange 6855 - lined green - repainted Swindon"

 

Some of this ties in well with previous thread entries.

 

Preumably all or the majority of the above would have received the early BR totem, as the new emblem apparently didn't appear in any quantity until well into 1957, despite it's introduction in July 1956.

 

I'd seen plenty of pictures of Granges in lined green with the early crest but all taken after 1956. I'd assumed that some of them must have been repainted in 1956 because of the numbers and the relatively short window before the crest was changed.

 

I didn't know the later crest had been introduced that early. I'd been under the impression that it wasn't officially introduced until March '57. In any case there would have been some lag before it's widespread appearance whilst using up stocks of the older type.

[cary hill]

 

 

I didn't know the later crest had been introduced that early. I'd been under the impression that it wasn't officially introduced until March '57. In any case there would have been some lag before it's widespread appearance whilst using up stocks of the older type.

 

The information I had was sourced from another vintage RM article from August 1976 "British Railways'liveries 1948-57" by none other than our own L.W.Goddard. He states a new BR totem was introduced in July 1956 and the first loco to carry it was No.70016 "Ariel". He then muses along the lines you have suggested re the lack of supplies of the new emblem, or desire the utilise the old emblem stocks first, causing a delay in the widespread adoption of the new emblem until well into 1957.

 

I think No. 70016 would have been a Laira engine at this time.

 

The article also mentions 7828 was turned out in lined green with the old emblem and states that by August 1956 Counties Nos. 1000,1003,1013,1016,1017 and 1025 were all carrying green(presumably lined with the old emblem)?.

 

Edited for omission

[jonny777]

I have looked at a number of colour albums, and photos of lined green locos with an early emblem are not common.

 

The ones that I have found so far are,

 

On Cambrian Lines - Derek Huntriss

 

7801 Aberystwyth Dec 1958

2260 Llanbadarn May 1959 (looks green but maybe black as angle is rather acute)

 

Western Steam In Colour - Hugh Ballantyne

 

1000 May 1956 u.i.d. location

4056 Old Oak Common Sep 1956

(this volume also contains a photo of 7816 in black at Swindon shed in Sep 1964, but with GWR on the tender)

 

Steam on W Country Branch Lines - Peter W Gray

 

5164 Hollacombe Jul 1958 (again angle rather acute, but I'm pretty sure it is lined green)

4585 Liskeard Aug 1958

 

Steam in Devon - Peter W Gray

 

5536 Dunsford Halt Mar 1958

 

Heyday Of Swindon - Dick Riley

 

4358 Jun 1957

4061 Sep 1955

5037 Oct 1957

 

Heyday Of 81A - Chris Leigh

 

6011 May 1956

6028 May 1956

 

4962 Ranelagh Bridge - no date

6006 Ranelagh Bridge Mar 1957

 

I also looked in,

 

Steam Around Devon & Cornwall - Peter W Gray

Heyday of Steam In South Wales - Derek Huntriss

Steam between Swindon & Severn - Mike Arlett

Steam on W of England Main Lines - Peter W Gray

 

but found none in those

 

EDIT:-

Flushed with success I tried a few more books

 

Western Steam In Colour 2 - Hugh Ballantyne

 

1026 Shrewsbury Sep 1956

 

Western Region Branch Lines - Chris Leigh

 

1453 Marlow Apr 1960

1444 Wargrave Mar 1958

 

Nothing in GWR 4-6-0s In Colour

[The Stationmaster]

I believe these 2 locos received lined green livery for royal train work. It was more elaborate than the standard version of lined green and included panels on the tender tops.

43XX seem to have been prime candidates for 'different' livery detail - 6308 emerged from Caerphilly in Feb/March 1957 with the tender incorrectly lined as a single panel instead of the sides and fenders having separate lined panels.

 

Caerphilly outshopped 'lesser' locos in lined green commencing with 4152 on 15 February 1957 followed by 4164, 5170, 6308, 5621 and 4358. Caerphilly began applying the new emblem starting with 5680 outshopped on 19 March 1957 and 3103 outshopped in May of that year; it had outshopped 5921 with the earlier emblem in January 1957 while 6308 also had the early emblem but the smaller size version..

[jjnewitt]

The information I had was sourced from another vintage RM article from August 1976 "British Railways'liveries 1948-57" by none other than our own L.W.Goddard. He states a new BR totem was introduced in July 1956 and the first loco to carry it was No.70016 "Ariel". He then muses along the lines you have suggested re the lack of supplies of the new emblem, or desire the utilise the old emblem stocks first, causing a delay in the widespread adoption of the new emblem until well into 1957.

 

I think No. 70016 would have been a Laira engine at this time.

 

The article also mentions 7828 was turned out in lined green with the old emblem and states that by August 1956 Counties Nos. 1000,1003,1013,1016,1017 and 1025 were all carrying green(presumably lined with the old emblem)?.

 

Edited for omission

 

I've just had a quick look in BR Standard Steam Locos Vol 1 published by RCTS and in there it notes that Ariel had the late crest applied in July '56 and was the first engine to recieve it. She was indeed a Liara engine at the time but would move to Canton at the end of the year.

 

I know that there were some issues with the late crest when it was introduced. BR did both a right and left facing version so that the lion was always pointing forwards but only the left facing one had been sanctioned by the relavent authority (The College of Hearaldry?). A few locos carried both the right and left versions for a time 45536 Private W. Wood V.C. being one. Perhaps this also contributed to the slow introduction? Certainly locos were still being outshopped with the early crest in February 1957. 5097 Sarum Castle came out of Swindon in that month after overhaul with the early crest.

 

Having had a quick look through my "library" all those counties carried lined green with the early crest. I also came across a picture of 1010 in lined green with the early crest outside Swindon Works in The Great Western Remembered by Whiteley and Morrison. The photo is dated 26th June 1955. If that's correct perhaps she was the first of the Counties repainted?

[jjnewitt]

43XX seem to have been prime candidates for 'different' livery detail - 6308 emerged from Caerphilly in Feb/March 1957 with the tender incorrectly lined as a single panel instead of the sides and fenders having separate lined panels.

 

Caerphilly outshopped 'lesser' locos in lined green commencing with 4152 on 15 February 1957 followed by 4164, 5170, 6308, 5621 and 4358. Caerphilly began applying the new emblem starting with 5680 outshopped on 19 March 1957 and 3103 outshopped in May of that year; it had outshopped 5921 with the earlier emblem in January 1957 while 6308 also had the early emblem but the smaller size version..

 

Caerphilly seemed to have a habit of doing things differently from time to time. They outshopped 6819 Highnam Grange in lined black instead of plain black at one point. One of only two Granges to recieve this livery.