rodger5591 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Can someone tell me which locos were allocated the 10 Stanier high sided flush tenders after 1948 ? The Essery books Illustrated History of LMS locomotives vol 1 discusses the tenders, but doesn't give details of what happened to them after being taken off the Jubilees, only that they went to some Patriots, 4Fs and 8Fs. The sections for each of these locos doesn't give tender allocation details. The link given with the Brassmasters kit for these tenders http://www.brassmast...r3500tender.htm leads to the standard Stanier 4000g tender kit instructions so doesnt help much However the Brassmasters 4F kit offers the following: Stanier high sided 3500 gallon tenders There were also a few instances of the high sided flush tenders from Jubilees 5607-5616 being re-allocated in the mid 1930s and post war. Known locos were 4578, 4594 and 4604. cheers Rodger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Irwell's "The Book of the Patriot 4-6-0s", presumably quoting from Engine Record Cards, says that: 45505 was fitted with tender 4569 from 2-4-60 to withdrawal in 1962. 45515 was fitted with tender 4573 from 10-1-57 to 9-2-57 and 4570 from 17-8-57 to15-3-58. 45539 was fitted with tender 4573 from 1-5-56 to 10-1-57. 45550 was fitted with tender 4573 from 29-12-42 to 23-1-56. 45551 was fitted with tender 4570 from 2-5-58 to withdrawal in 1961. More info may follow as available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Hi Rodger, The high sided flush tenders or 'modified old standard' tenders were basically Fowler 3500 gallon tenders with the sides extended upwards. There's one here attached to 45551. These were different from the Stanier 3500 gallon tenders which are marketed by Brassmasters. These were in effect mini Stanier 4000 gallon tenders and had curved tops to the sides as behind 45660. Alan Gibson did do a body kit for the high straight sided version. In addition to the info given by poor old bruce about the patriots: 48600 was fitted with one between 1958 and 1964 (LMS Loco Profiles Volume Eight) 45568 between 1957 and 1960 (The Book of the Jubilees) I couldn't find any more Jubilees that had them post 1948 but I could have missed some. The 8F was apparently the only one to be pired with the high straight sided tender. Edit: Links added Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodger5591 Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 Thanks very much Poor Old Bruce and Justin. By chance I was looking through the Essery book on the Jubilees (Historical Locomotive Monographs no2) for something else and on page 89, came across a full list of allocations of the 10 high sided tenders from construction to withdrawal. They mostly went to 4Fs it seems. Thanks also Justin for the clarification that there were Stanier tenders with 2 different wheel bases - saved me from buying a kit I wasn't looking for. There doesnt seem much interest registered in the proposed Gibson kit for Fowler side extensions so likely they wont be doing it. It seems from looking at the photo of 45551 it would be better to cut the sides of a RTR Fowler tender back to the rivet line, then add the extensions as a single plate, rather than just build up the existing sides as I was thinking of doing. Thanks again Rodger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Hi Rodger, It's a shame that Gibson are only producing the kit on a demand basis but it is understandable. Perhaps one day they'll do a small run of them. Your plan of cutting the sides down on a Fowler tender and adding extensions seems like a good one, the tender is effectively a Fowler one with side extensions. I've not come across any published drawings for the high straight sided tender but there are some good photos out there in books. The one I posted behind 45551 isn't the best but it was the first one I found on the web last night. The picture in the 8F book I mentioned is a good close up as is the picture of 45515 in The Book of the Patriots. Good luck with the project. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cb900f Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Rodger, There are some plans in 4mm for the tender from Jan 1974 Model Railways magazine. I will try and dig them out for you. I used nickel silver, cut out the sides using the plans and then rivetted them. PM sent Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodger5591 Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 For others looking to model this tender, there is also a good close up side view of one on 45568 on page 88 of Essery's Jubilees, and thanks to Justin enlightening me, I now notice there is a good side shot of a Stanier 13' wheelbase tender on 5626 on the page opposite. Something to do next. Thanks also to Pete for the plans - much appreciated. I guess since I'm making a project of it, Bachmann will decide to do the high sided Fowler as a tender variant on their new 4Fs (and its an interesting variant for their Jubilees and Patriots too) cheers Rodger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 For others looking to model this tender, there is also a good close up side view of one on 45568 on page 88 of Essery's Jubilees, and thanks to Justin enlightening me, I now notice there is a good side shot of a Stanier 13' wheelbase tender on 5626 on the page opposite. Something to do next. Thanks also to Pete for the plans - much appreciated. I guess since I'm making a project of it, Bachmann will decide to do the high sided Fowler as a tender variant on their new 4Fs (and its an interesting variant for their Jubilees and Patriots too) I'd rather Bachmann did the curved-top 3500 gallon tender (but I'm not holding my breath). There were 50 of them, some ended up on 8Fs and one on a Scot. One is preserved with 48305. Many years ago I bought some body etches for the high straight-sided tender and used them on a 4F. Not sure whos etches they were, could have been Perseverance who did a tender cab as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwoch Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I've got the original LMS (Derby) tender record cards. They don't list all of the fitments mentioned above. According to the cards: 4569 was new in 1934 fitted to 5612. The last entry is 1957 when it went to 45568. 4570 was new in 1934 fitted to 5613. The last entry is 1958 fitted to 45551 4573 was new in 1934 fitted to 5616, then onto 5550 in 1942, then 45515 in 1957 and three months later onto 45719. Any comments most welcome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Would this be one? http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/43268-44401-kirkby-in-ashfield-mpd-18-07-1965/ Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Would this be one? http://www.rmweb.co....mpd-18-07-1965/ Yup that's one of them. LMS high straight sided tender. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devonseasider Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Would this be one? http://www.rmweb.co....mpd-18-07-1965/ Stewart Yes, as I commented under the photo! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianwales Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Hi Roger It may be too late as I have only just come across this thread, but the straight high sided 3500 gall tender was available in the Falcon Brass range which is now owned by Dart Castings, I know this because I have one. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5 C Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Dean Sidings has one under development. When I spoke to him at Warley, he was trying to source a current Hornby 4F in order to develop a loco-tender coupling arrangement which would suit the various RTR locos this tender could be coupled to. Timescales were anticipated as early part of this year. He's at the Stafford show in February and he's hoping to have a clearer idea then. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45568 Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Would he not be better just to make a tender body to use on top of whichever existing tender chassis? Cheers,Peter C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5 C Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Would he not be better just to make a tender body to use on top of whichever existing tender chassis? Cheers,Peter C. A good point. I may have misunderstood of course and that's what he's planning on doing. Either way, I'll speak to him at Stafford and report back here. If he's agreeable I'll post a pic as well. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodger5591 Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 Thanks for the info, Ian. John Jennison at Brassmasters kindly made up a kit for me, tho I have yet to make a start on it. Need to get a new soldering iron first. , A swappable body for RTR tenders sounds very good. Given the variety and complexity of tender connections these days, swapping tenders around is not as straightforward as it once was. Producing quality alternate tender bodies for the past/current/future RTR offerings is definitely an opportunity for someone to exploit. But unfortunately, like many small suppliers, Dean Sidings is only contactable at shows, so if you live outside the UK, not possible to make an order with them. There's a business opportunity there - helping UK small suppliers bring their stuff to a wider audience, through a specialist ebay shop or something similar, that does their marketing and selling for them, so they can focus on design and production. Rodger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Thanks for the info, Ian. John Jennison at Brassmasters kindly made up a kit for me, tho I have yet to make a start on it. Need to get a new soldering iron first. , A swappable body for RTR tenders sounds very good. Given the variety and complexity of tender connections these days, swapping tenders around is not as straightforward as it once was. Producing quality alternate tender bodies for the past/current/future RTR offerings is definitely an opportunity for someone to exploit. But unfortunately, like many small suppliers, Dean Sidings is only contactable at shows, so if you live outside the UK, not possible to make an order with them. There's a business opportunity there - helping UK small suppliers bring their stuff to a wider audience, through a specialist ebay shop or something similar, that does their marketing and selling for them, so they can focus on design and production. Rodger We used to have a place like that - W & H in London, sadly long departed, but there catalogue listed most suppliers of the day. As you say, a market oppurtunity? Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5 C Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 , A swappable body for RTR tenders sounds very good. Given the variety and complexity of tender connections these days, swapping tenders around is not as straightforward as it once was. Producing quality alternate tender bodies for the past/current/future RTR offerings is definitely an opportunity for someone to exploit. But unfortunately, like many small suppliers, Dean Sidings is only contactable at shows, so if you live outside the UK, not possible to make an order with them. There's a business opportunity there - helping UK small suppliers bring their stuff to a wider audience, through a specialist ebay shop or something similar, that does their marketing and selling for them, so they can focus on design and production. Rodger Although the high sided tenders were sometimes attributed to Stanier, Essery & Jenkinson in Volume 5 state that "...the only 'Stanier' feature was the modified side sheets..." and that "They were in all other respects perfectly orthodox Fowler-style tenders..." Depending on the "donor" tender, purchasers of a replacement tender top may also need a matching underframe. The high sided tender shares the Fowler tender wheelbase of 6' 6" + 6' 6" whereas the Stanier 4000 gallon types have a 7' 6" + 7' 6" wheelbase as well as other detail differences. The same book also has a picture of parallel boilered Patriot 5550, which apparently was attached to one between 1946 and 1956. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 While we are on about alternative tenders, there are also the apparently forgotten fifty 3500 gallon tenders which were built with Jubliees 5617-5666 (IIRC). These were similar in appaerance to the riveted 4000 gallon type but were shorter being on a 6'6" + 6'6" underframe. At the time that the Jubilee class was first complete, ALL Jubilees on the Midland lines had either the high straight-sided tender or the Stanier 3500 gallon tenders, so modelling pre-war Midland Judilees is a bit awkward at the mo. Later these tenders found their way onto other Jubilees, some onto 8Fs and even one onto a Royal Scot. I sowed the seeds with Dean Sidings at Stafford last year and will try to have another chat with him this year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5 C Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 While we are on about alternative tenders, there are also the apparently forgotten fifty 3500 gallon tenders which were built with Jubliees 5617-5666 (IIRC). These were similar in appaerance to the riveted 4000 gallon type but were shorter being on a 6'6" + 6'6" underframe. At the time that the Jubilee class was first complete, ALL Jubilees on the Midland lines had either the high straight-sided tender or the Stanier 3500 gallon tenders, so modelling pre-war Midland Judilees is a bit awkward at the mo. Later these tenders found their way onto other Jubilees, some onto 8Fs and even one onto a Royal Scot. I sowed the seeds with Dean Sidings at Stafford last year and will try to have another chat with him this year. If you're up for building a kit, Brassmasters offer the Stanier 3500 gallon tender: http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/Stanier3500tender.htm I have one in the kit pile to go behind one of the many Jubs I bought when Hattons were selling ridiculously cheap DCC fitted ones last year. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cb900f Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 There is also another option, K's 3,500 gal from their jubilee kit. Although I realise that it will not bear comparison against the Brassmasters. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 There is also another option, K's 3,500 gal from their jubilee kit. I wasn't aware of that one! Thanks also to 5C for reminding us of the Brassmasters kit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 And of-course there is the one from the Gibson range, don't know if it's available off the shelf but if Colin gets enough interest he'll be happy to etch some more. Dave Franks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5 C Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 A good point. I may have misunderstood of course and that's what he's planning on doing. Either way, I'll speak to him at Stafford and report back here. If he's agreeable I'll post a pic as well. Andy As promised, I've posted a couple of pictures of the Dean Sidings "Stanier" straight sided tender and details of my conversation with Dave at this weekend's Stafford show. I've made the posting in the Dean Sidings thread to avoid cluttering this thread and aid future reference. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/29455-dean-sidings/?p=937303 Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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