54Strat Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Hi, I thought I'd post my results of a first attempt at the association sample kit's 16 ton mineral wagon. After a small glitch with order that the buffers are attached (thanks to Rich and Andy for their feedback) I think it's come together quite well for a beginner. I did unsuccessfully attempt Bryn's group build of Stephen Harris's 16t kits almost a year ago, so I'm not quite the soldering virgin, well almost. Overall I think it's a fair go at it, the body, solebars, buffers, brakes and cross shaft are all ok imo, but there are two areas I'm not happy about and had problems with; The axle boxes are a ###### to solder both to laminate and to solder onto the w irons. They kept either slipping or de-laminating and soon became a trial to get right. Has anyone any tips, jig ideas or techniques to help with these? Don't look too closely in the pics, the non squareness is where I decided it's good enough. Ahem. Getting the brake levers to fit were a nightmare. Even after bending, they still were a little long. As they are now, I still think they're a little off. I think I'll be doing a few more of these, I'm getting the bug. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 The axle boxes are a ###### to solder both to laminate and to solder onto the w irons. They kept either slipping or de-laminating and soon became a trial to get right. Has anyone any tips, jig ideas or techniques to help with these? Don't look too closely in the pics, the non squareness is where I decided it's good enough. Ahem. Welcome to 2mm modelling :-). One thing is to perservere, you will find your ability to assemble them improves with practice. However you are right that they are quite tricky. The latest separate etched axleboxes (2-308 etc) have a fold-up assembly that means they are soldered together before detaching from their support, which means they should all assemble square. Unfortunately the wagon underframes do not incorporate this feature. My personal solution is to use an RSU and assemble all the axlebox layers at one go. You can also dispense with the etched axleboxes and use castings instead (item 2-473 in this case). These better represent the true depth of an axlebox. Overall it looks good for a first attempt though. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold bcnPete Posted October 23, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 23, 2012 Well done Paul - looks very good. I still have yet to complete fully my first 2mmFS wagon etch...but that doesn't seem to stop me buying and stashing them... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 It looks great, especially for a first go. The axlebox misalignment is a lot less obvious once painted and dirtied. I like the castings a lot because they are so easy when compared. Like Chris I use an RSU now I have one - it makes a lot of things easier to assemble. Unlike Chris I do them one layer at a time (unless the etch surround has alignment features). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
54Strat Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 Thanks for the comments guys, and it's really reassuring to know that I'm not the only one who finds those axle boxes tricky. Thanks for the suggestions for alternates, the etches sound more to my liking if only to avoid the soldering white metal to brass, which I've heard can be tricky. How many axle boxes do you get per etch (2-308) ? I think I'll be ordering these, and I might as well get the castings and see what's involved, I could always superglue them. I looked at the price of an RSU, wow, really that much? For now, I'll be (sic have to be ) happy to improve my soldering skills with my iron. Who would I direct confusion with the 2mm products website to? One part is listed (2-419) as part of the component list for the 2-502 BR 21T mineral wagon, and there's no such listing. Is it a typo, and it should be 2-319 MR oil axleboxes and springs? It can be a bit confusing with trying to find out what axle boxes go with what springs and on which chassis. I am enjoying the research, and as I get more familiar with the parts I'm sure it'll get easier. For instance, I now know what the tie bars are for, and they're not (as a general rule) seen on unfitted wagons. Now to order that rake... Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Dear Paul I realise that the buffers are part of the kit, but from the photos (so I could easily be mistaken) they look like bottle based buffers. These were an unusual buffer used on some wagons in the early part of the last century. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/buffers/h39e476de#h39e476de Mineral wagons had different buffers, and different at each end. The commonest type was to have a full webbing at the plain end http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brmineralweld/e2440607d and a step top at the door end http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brmineralweld/e1b4774af - similar to this one http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/buffers/e2a58377 (although this is on a vacuum braked wagon so is longer). Hope of interest Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Who would I direct confusion with the 2mm products website to? One part is listed (2-419) as part of the component list for the 2-502 BR 21T mineral wagon, and there's no such listing. Is it a typo, and it should be 2-319 MR oil axleboxes and springs? That's a "don't know". It doesn't even feature in my "great renumbering" spreadsheet to change product codes from old to current numbers. Its not going to be the MR axleboxes. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Thanks for the comments guys, and it's really reassuring to know that I'm not the only one who finds those axle boxes tricky. Thanks for the suggestions for alternates, the etches sound more to my liking if only to avoid the soldering white metal to brass, which I've heard can be tricky. How many axle boxes do you get per etch (2-308) ? I think I'll be ordering these, and I might as well get the castings and see what's involved, I could always superglue them. I looked at the price of an RSU, wow, really that much? For now, I'll be (sic have to be ) happy to improve my soldering skills with my iron. Who would I direct confusion with the 2mm products website to? One part is listed (2-419) as part of the component list for the 2-502 BR 21T mineral wagon, and there's no such listing. Is it a typo, and it should be 2-319 MR oil axleboxes and springs? It can be a bit confusing with trying to find out what axle boxes go with what springs and on which chassis. I am enjoying the research, and as I get more familiar with the parts I'm sure it'll get easier. For instance, I now know what the tie bars are for, and they're not (as a general rule) seen on unfitted wagons. Now to order that rake... Paul Just glue the castings on, its much easier. RSUs can be expensive, but it pays to shop around and be patient. Mine cost much less than people are asking now, however the company that made it want under. There was a major renumbering of shop parts last year, it may be that some of the component lists have not caught up. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted October 24, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 24, 2012 Looking at your pictures, I would not have known this was a 2mm model - always the acid test, I think. Well done! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Dear Paul I realise that the buffers are part of the kit, but from the photos (so I could easily be mistaken) they look like bottle based buffers. These were an unusual buffer used on some wagons in the early part of the last century. http://paulbartlett....476de#h39e476de Mineral wagons had different buffers, and different at each end. The commonest type was to have a full webbing at the plain end http://PaulBartlett....lweld/e2440607d and a step top at the door end http://PaulBartlett....lweld/e1b4774af - similar to this one http://PaulBartlett....uffers/e2a58377 (although this is on a vacuum braked wagon so is longer). Hope of interest Paul Bartlett The buffers supplied are probably the generic turned wagon buffers, which are cheap and robust but don't represent anything in particular. Until recently they were all we had in production. We now have available lost-wax cast buffers of the standard 4-rib type, these are actually the most difficult buffer to do in 2mm due to its thin shank, and it has taken us 10 years of attempts to get them done (don't ask). The item number is 2-070v1. Other types will hopefully follow. But they may still prove too expensive to include in a sample pack, as they work out at 2.25 for a set of 4, which is more expensive than any other part of the kit - the turned ones cost 75p as a comparison. In short, buffers in 2mm are a whole lot more dificult than in 4mm, where "buy them from MJT" is all you need to do. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I think the buffers on the wagon are the generic shop ones, but probably from the batch which the sales officer showed me over the summer. They have a distinctive conical shape to the buffer housing, unlike the previous generic turned batches which looked a lot more like standard near-parallel buffer bodies. I don't think this batch of buffers looks like anything in particular. The new cast ones are nice, but understandably more expensive. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I don't think this batch of buffers looks like anything in particular. Yes, they are weird. Most of my stock has the plain turned buffers. For the perfectionist they could be bettered but I feel buffers are only really noticed when photographed or perhaps under the scrutiny of a competition judge with a magnifier! the overall look/impression is more important. For example I have a Macaw that I spent a long time carefully filing the housings rectangular and am not convinced that it was worth the effort, despite the result. The new cast ones are nice, but understandably more expensive. I'm still waiting for the GWR Self contained type to appear. Iirc we were told, at an AGM a few years back, that these had been cast. They do look sufficiently different because of the sheer bulk of the things and will not have the same problem with the skinny shanks for the same reason. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I'm still waiting for the GWR Self contained type to appear. Iirc we were told, at an AGM a few years back, that these had been cast. They do look sufficiently different because of the sheer bulk of the things and will not have the same problem with the skinny shanks for the same reason. There were several test castings done a while ago, but successful buffers in production quantities never emerged. Then a series of casters promised they could cast, but it turned out they could/would not. Now we have a caster who can do the most common, but also most difficult type, the others will doubtless emerge as time permits. You can be sure that if we had cast the rarer but easier ones first, that there would have been complaints from certain quarters abut where the RCH ones were. Plus it would have been bizarre to find ourselves in that position. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2mm Andy Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 The list below is taken from an old shop list, but illustrates what should be available in due course. Wagon buffers (lost wax brass) - RCH 4 rib 1'6" high top rib Wagon buffers (lost wax brass) - RCH 4 rib 1'8½ Wagon buffers (lost wax brass) - RCH 2 rib 1'8½ Wagon buffers (lost wax brass) - Duplex 1'8½ Wagon buffers (lost wax brass) - Oleo 1'8½ - 13" head Wagon buffers (lost wax brass) - Oleo 1'8½ - 16" head Wagon buffers (lost wax brass) - Oleo 1'8½ - 18" head Wagon buffers (lost wax brass) - Oleo 2'0½ Wagon buffers (lost wax brass) - Self contained 1'6" Wagon buffers (lost wax brass) - Self contained 1'8½" Wagon buffers (lost wax brass) - Self contained 2'0½" Wagon buffers (lost wax brass) - Dowty 1'8½" Wagon buffers (lost wax brass) - Dowty 2'0½" Wagon buffers (lost wax brass) - Caledonian 3 bolt Hope that helps. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted October 24, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 24, 2012 I'm still waiting for the GWR Self contained type to appear. Iirc we were told, at an AGM a few years back, that these had been cast. They do look sufficiently different because of the sheer bulk of the things and will not have the same problem with the skinny shanks for the same reason. Rich, As you may have noticed from the list that Andy has put up there is no mention of the GWR self-contained type. I have been involved with this project for twelve years now and this particular buffer has never been part of the proposed types. This doesn't mean that I haven't felt increasingly guilty about its absence but, typically of the Great Western, it is rather an odd one out. Three out of the four 'Big Four' companies mostly used the RCH four rib cast buffer and the 1'6" (i.e. unfitted) version is the one that we have successfully introduced into the shop and is, indeed, ideal for the standard, unfitted 16T mineral wagon. We do, finally, seem to have found one and possibly two casters who are able to produce the buffer range and may also prove to be reliable enough to persevere with. If you examine the list you will see that, with the exception of the GWR self-contained buffer, we have covered a considerable number of the varieties in use from 1923 for the next sixty or so years. It may be that, if the planned range can be successfully produced, there will be scope for adding further types in the future. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 It is more than likely that I heard 'self contained' and presumed. I'll go back to my cave now ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nick_bastable Posted October 24, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 24, 2012 that looks a lot better than my first attempt well done Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
54Strat Posted October 26, 2012 Author Share Posted October 26, 2012 This is proving to be a real education. Now I know.. Unfitted wagons of a 9ft/10ft wb didn't have tie bars How 2/4 shoe Morton brakes actually work Cocktail sticks can save fingers There is more than one way to skin an axle box. Other people struggle with similar tricky bits too. Buffers deserve a lot more attention than I'd ever thought, especially ones with a step on. Soldering is about cleaning and clamping as much as it is about heating things up. Fettling is always required (at least at my level) White diagonal stripes identify door ends. Use pictures of the real thing to confirm what you suspect. Cheap files are cheap files. Top hat bearings instantly ping and vanish into thin air. Thanks again for everyone's contributions. Now to get this one painted. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Cheap files are cheap files. Now that is certainly the truth. I invested in a fantastic set of files about ten years ago now, and have never regretted it. For two sets of six, I probably spent as much as a loco kit would cost. However, to build just one wagon, that would be a daunting expense. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 This is proving to be a real education. Every day is a school day! You've just thought me a few things. Thank you. Now I know.. Soldering is about cleaning and clamping as much as it is about heating things up. I would say more so. Oh, and fettling is really only touching up to get things looking nice. I dare say everyone does it, whatever their skill level. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted October 26, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2012 Not withstanding the good advice to buy good files there are also some alternatives for some jobs; From a piece of scrap brass cut and file up a chisel end this can be used to scrap away excess solder the brass should not damage the etch brass or nickel but will remove solder. Cheap emery boards are useful for soft material plastic etc. save spoiling files. Those rubbery abrasive blocks are very useful Plumbers merchants sell packs of steel wool which plumbers use to clean up the copper pipe before soldering. A bit rough for 2mm surfaces but very good for cleaning up the inside parts ready for soldering. Don't use them too long though as they start to break off and small bits of steel are a nuiscance. Kitched scourers can be useful for cleaning parts up. Regards Don ps the wagon looks pretty good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Not withstanding the good advice to buy good files there are also some alternatives for some jobs; From a piece of scrap brass cut and file up a chisel end this can be used to scrap away excess solder the brass should not damage the etch brass or nickel but will remove solder. Cheap emery boards are useful for soft material plastic etc. save spoiling files. Those rubbery abrasive blocks are very useful Plumbers merchants sell packs of steel wool which plumbers use to clean up the copper pipe before soldering. A bit rough for 2mm surfaces but very good for cleaning up the inside parts ready for soldering. Don't use them too long though as they start to break off and small bits of steel are a nuiscance. Kitched scourers can be useful for cleaning parts up. Regards Don ps the wagon looks pretty good. I wouldn't use my files for any of those jobs anyway. Far too pricey for that. Also a good advice is to buy yourself a large file or two. I have a 9" Sandvik No 6 cut which I use to remove things like the tabs on the edge of etches, particularly the larger pieces. I tend to rub the part along the file rather than the other way around. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold queensquare Posted October 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2012 I would agree with all the above advice regarding files. Some of the cheep files you can now buy in wallets aren't bad and are perfectly ok for rough work, plastic, whitemetal etc. For best, finishing work etc its worth investing in some top quality files, (don't let them anywhere near whitemetal or solder). These aren't cheap, expect to pay around £10 each if not more but are well worth the investment. The good news is you don't need a full set - the two or three most useful shapes are enough, certainly to start with. Keep them stood up in holes a block of wood so they don't rub together and mark them with a bit of paint so or tape so they only get used for 'best' and they will last for years. Jerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
54Strat Posted November 8, 2012 Author Share Posted November 8, 2012 I had some time to paint and weather it, just waiting on transfers Looks like I forgot about the buffers, ahem, Errors aside, I'm really pleased with how well it's turned out. I'm probably going to ebay my farish ones and start building a rake of these together with the few Stephen Harris ones. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John lewsey Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 This probably sounds daft but are there any instructions for the mineral wagon as I've got four to do and not quite sure where all of the bits go Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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