GWR Poster boards and early Structure Colours

[wenlock]

I'm building a model of a William Clarke station building and would like information about the boards that were used to past posters on to. I've got some 7mm examples from the "Tiny Signs range, these come in a couple of styles. Some have GWR written at the top, whereas others have Great Western Railway written in full, again across the top of the board. Both styles have a black background with white lettering and a white border.

I've been looking through a few books to find prototype pictures and the majority of the boards in the pictures don't have a white border and appear to be black all over with out any company insignia.

 

Does anyone know what would be the most appropriate style for circa 1905, along with information about when the different styles appeared?

 

Any information would be much appreciated!

 

Dave

[Mikkel]

Interesting topic. I did a similar search for poster board styles a while ago. 

 

As you say some seem to have had no insignia, but others did have the lettering you mention here. There's an example of "Great Western Railway" across three "bays" here: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsh489a.htm There are also a couple of nice examples on page 44 of "Edwardian Enterprise". However, as you can see in those photos I am not sure the lettering was in fact white!

 

I have been wondering a bit about the "GWR" type, as I don't recall seeing that in any prototype photos. I have a slight suspicion this may in fact be a misinterpretation of the heading on some of the GWR travel posters, rather than something that was written directly on poster boards. Eg posters like this one: http://eshop.wiltshire.gov.uk/getshopitem.php?id=69

 

I think you may have a point about the white framing, and whether that is in fact correct. It certainly mirrors the practice for other signs on stations, but off-hand I haven't been able to find any examples with white frames.

 

Most appear to be very dark (and also more elaborate than the ones provided by the trade), eg here: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrfc82b.htm

 

- but then there are others that seem more light (though hardly white). Eg the one on the extreme right here (if indeed it is a poster board) looks to be light stone?   http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsa505b.htm

Edited December 28, 2012 by Mikkel

[David Bigcheeseplant]

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsa505b.htm

Slightly off topic but this photo clearly shows the three colour painting of the buildings the woodwork is light stone the framing is dark stone and the doors and windows including all sashes and frames are chocolate a stile that lasted well into the 1920s

[wenlock]

Interesting topic. I did a similar search for poster board styles a while ago. 

 

As you say some seem to have had no insignia, but others did have the lettering you mention here. There's an example of "Great Western Railway" across three "bays" here: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsh489a.htm There are also a couple of nice examples on page 44 of "Edwardian Enterprise". However, as you can see in those photos I am not sure the lettering was in fact white!

 

I have been wondering a bit about the "GWR" type, as I don't recall seeing that in any prototype photos. I have a slight suspicion this may in fact be a misinterpretation of the heading on some of the GWR travel posters, rather than something that was written directly on poster boards. Eg posters like this one: http://eshop.wiltshire.gov.uk/getshopitem.php?id=69

 

I think you may have a point about the white framing, and whether that is in fact correct. It certainly mirrors the practice for other signs on stations, but off-hand I haven't been able to find any examples with white frames.

 

Most appear to be very dark (and also more elaborate than the ones provided by the trade), eg here: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrfc82b.htm

 

- but then there are others that seem more light (though hardly white). Eg the one on the extreme right here (if indeed it is a poster board) looks to be light stone?   http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsa505b.htm

Hi Mikkel, some interesting pictures here. I think you are right about the GWR style being a trade corruption of the type face printed at the top of travel posters. I haven't been able to find any examples of this style in prototype photos.

 

Your first picture showing "Great Western Railway" across three poster bays is lovely, but does throw up a number of questions! The edges of the poster board look dark, but I'm not convinced that they are black. The font is certainly light, but as you say doesn't look white. I don't think light and dark stone would give enough contrast on a poster board, so maybe chocolate was used for the framing along with the window frames, as suggested by David in his post.

I think I'm going to scratch build some poster boards, with raised edging for my building, but who knows what colour they will end up!

Thanks for your thoughts

 

Dave

[wenlock]

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsa505b.htm

Slightly off topic but this photo clearly shows the three colour painting of the buildings the woodwork is light stone the framing is dark stone and the doors and windows including all sashes and frames are chocolate a stile that lasted well into the 1920s

Hi David your thoughts on window frame colour are very interesting. I'd always been led to believe that the sashes were white. Mikkels picture of Shirley station appears to confirm your view that the windows are darker than white. To my eye the colour of the windows looks to be exactly the same colour as the framing on the poster boards. I guess the plot thickens, I'm now unsure what colour to paint my poster boards, or my window frames!

 

All fun stuff.

 

Dave

Edited December 28, 2012 by wenlock

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Hi David your thoughts on window frame colour are very interesting. I'd always been led to believe that the sashes were white. Mikkels picture of Shirley station appears to confirm your view that the windows are darker than white. To my eye the colour of the windows looks to be exactly the same colour as the framing on the poster boards. I guess the plot thickens, I'm now unsure what colour to paint my poster boards, or my window frames!

 

All fun stuff.

 

Dave

It's a pet niggle of mine as all publications and even the station colours make no mention of the style, Great Western Way on it's reprint kept on about no change of style from the formation of the GWR to the end, the chocolate brown window frames sashes seemed to be in use by 1880 through to the mid 1920s, when the white window sash style came in and a much less dark paint seemed to be applied. have a look through the Wild Swan book Great Western Enterprise and all buildings are in the dark window scheme.

 

An exception are signal boxes that do have white sashes from at least the early 1890s but remember signal boxes were repainted by the signal department.

 

What era is your model, as I will try and find some photo of poster boards for you.

 

David

Edited December 28, 2012 by David Bigcheeseplant

[David Bigcheeseplant]

http://www.transportarchive.org.uk/getobject.php?rnum=L2338&searchitem=west wycombe&mtv=L3&pnum=1

http://www.transportarchive.org.uk/getobject.php?rnum=L1824&searchitem=west wycombe&mtv=L4&pnum=1

A couple of photo of West Wycombe showing quite a bit of very dark paint (chocolate) also note there is no white paint on the poster boards.

 

http://www.transportarchive.org.uk/getobject.php?rnum=L1694&searchitem=saunderton&mtv=L4&pnum=1

http://www.transportarchive.org.uk/getobject.php?rnum=L1797&searchitem=saunderton&mtv=L4&pnum=1

 

and above two photos of Saunderton in 1905 again no doubt about it those doors and windows are very dark and not stone which does apear on the footbridge panels in the distance, Great Western Way would have us belive the door panels were light stone with framing in dark and window sashes in white

 

David

Edited December 28, 2012 by David Bigcheeseplant

[buffalo]

Hi Dave,

 

As you know, I've been studying William Clarke buildings quite intently in preparation for one day making a model of the Camerton station building. My studies have concentrated on the Bristol & North Somerset and Camerton branches, though I've looked at a fair few elsewhere, both by Clarke and others. From this I'm in full agreement with David about colours and, other than signal boxes, have found no sign of white sashes between the 1880s and mid-1920s. Indeed, in some cases, the chocolate sashes and frames persist into the early thirties. Doors also are mostly very dark, presumably chocolate, until some time in the twenties when dark stone with light stone panels start to appear. As David also mentioned the S&T were a quite independent lot with their own painting regime and specific painting instructions (how many folk realise they were meant to paint point rodding in a bright red?).

 

As to posters, the smaller Clarke buildings had mostly single and some double sized poster panels, nothing larger would fit anywhere. In some cases, there seems to be an intermediate size that often carries a single poster. The single posters were printed on "Double Royal" sized paper, 25" x 40" and I suspect the doubles were on twice this size or, perhaps, "Double Quad" (40" x 60"). Most posters in 1908 were entirely text, usually with GWR at the top, though there were some more ornate or pictorial types, but not usually more than about 25%.

 

The poster boards all have a dark background, probably chocolate, though maybe black. Could they also be used as chalk boards? Maybe, but I don't recall seen any examples. At Camerton and other nearby stations in 1908 they have "Great Western Railway" across the top in a light lettering, probably not white as it invariably looks darker in photos (gold, yellow, light stone?). A 1910 photo of Camerton shows this to have been changed to a widely spaced "GWR" and this may be in white. In both cases, there are some mounted in the upper row under the awning that may not have this lettering panel. The lettering panel is about 6" high and usually separated from the rest of the board by a horizontal batten. This batten and the outer frame, or at least its inner edge, often appear to be in a lighter colour but this might be just a highlight effect rather than a real colour difference.  1924 photos show most of the panels to have been replaced with ones without the lettering panel.

 

Finally, your date of 1908 appears to be the peak of poster numbers on the smaller buildings. One photo of Camerton shows a poster on almost every available (non-window or door) space on the platform side. There is room for perhaps two more. The walls had horizontal battens (2"x1"?) covering all available space and at about 15" to 18" vertical separation on which the poster boards were mounted. Sometimes, a loose board is seen at floor level leaning against the wall.

 

Nick

Edited December 28, 2012 by buffalo

[wenlock]

Hi David, I'm modelling circa 1905, but I think you deduced that judging by you second post! The pics of Saunderton are very interesting, both show the doors at the same time period circa 1905. In the first picture the door appears to be one overall dark colour, quite probably a dark chocolate. In the second picture where the door is open, the recessed panels are clearly a different colour from the rest of the door, but it all looks too dark for a combination of dark and light stone. This obviously begs the question of what colour are the lighter panels painted in, if we accept that the rest of the door is chocolate.

 

The poster panels are again confusing, I agree that the edging is dark and certainly not white. Painting them chocolate to match the windows seems quite likely, but is purely supposition on my part! If we accept that the edging is in chocolate, then what colour was the lettering? White gives too much contrast with the chocolate, the photos don't show that much colour difference. The lettering could have been the same colour as the recessed panel on the previously mentioned door, possibly light or dark stone.

 

I'm not looking forward to painting all my white windows chocolate, but its looking more and more likely that going to have to!

 

Happy days!

 

Dave

[Mikkel]

These references to the dark chocolate scheme are pretty convincing to me. A well researched article on the issue would be most welcome.

 

Not least because we may have to revisit our interpretations of other aspects of the livery schemes that are based on assumptions such as "if that colour is dark stone, then that other colour must be light stone" (eg in our recent discussion about goods depot interiors). But if the colour is in fact chocolate, then "that other colour" may in fact be dark stone - etc.

 

 A 1910 photo of Camerton shows this to have been changed to a widely spaced "GWR" and this may be in white.

Interesting. So that proves that this style of poster board did exist at some point. Are there punctuations between the letters?

Edited December 28, 2012 by Mikkel

[wenlock]

Hi Dave,

 

As you know, I've been studying William Clarke buildings quite intently in preparation for one day making a model of the Camerton station building. My studies have concentrated on the Bristol & North Somerset and Camerton branches, though I've looked at a fair few elsewhere, both by Clarke and others. From this I'm in full agreement with David about colours and, other than signal boxes, have found no sign of white sashes between the 1880s and mid-1920s. Indeed, in some cases, the chocolate sashes and frames persist into the early thirties. Doors also are mostly very dark, presumably chocolate, until some time in the twenties when dark stone with light stone panels start to appear. As David also mentioned the S&T were a quite independent lot with their own painting regime and specific painting instructions (how many folk realise they were meant to paint point rodding in a bright red?).

 

As to posters, the smaller Clarke buildings had mostly single and some double sized poster panels, nothing larger would fit anywhere. In some cases, there seems to be an intermediate size that often carries a single poster. The single posters were printed on "Double Royal" sized paper, 25" x 40" and I suspect the doubles were on twice this size or, perhaps, "Double Quad" (40" x 60"). Most posters in 1908 were entirely text, usually with GWR at the top, though there were some more ornate or pictorial types, but not usually more than about 25%.

 

The poster boards all have a dark background, probably chocolate, though maybe black. Could they also be used as chalk boards? Maybe, but I don't recall seen any examples. At Camerton and other nearby stations in 1908 they have "Great Western Railway" across the top in a light lettering, probably not white as it invariably looks darker in photos (gold, yellow, light stone?). A 1910 photo of Camerton shows this to have been changed to a widely spaced "GWR" and this may be in white. In both cases, there are some mounted in the upper row under the awning that may not have this lettering panel. The lettering panel is about 6" high and usually separated from the rest of the board by a horizontal batten. This batten and the outer frame, or at least its inner edge, often appear to be in a lighter colour but this might be just a highlight effect rather than a real colour difference.  1924 photos show most of the panels to have been replaced with ones without the lettering panel.

 

Finally, your date of 1908 appears to be the peak of poster numbers on the smaller buildings. One photo of Camerton shows a poster on almost every available (non-window or door) space on the platform side. There is room for perhaps two more. The walls had horizontal battens (2"x1"?) covering all available space and at about 15" to 18" vertical separation on which the poster boards were mounted. Sometimes, a loose board is seen at floor level leaning against the wall.

 

Nick

Thanks for all that information Nick, it confirms all my suspicions and backs up David's conclusions. You're quite right about the proliferation of posters in my chosen period, just about every suitable surface was covered in them. It just goes to show that being bombarded with advertising is hardly a modern phenomenon!

 

I'm fairly clear that I should paint my building in the following colours, but if anyone has further clarification/information I'd love to know!

 

Windows. Dark chocolate

Doors Dark chocolate. ( need to clarify what colour should recessed panels be?)

Poster boards. Dark chocolate edges, light stone or maybe gold lettering

Valance. Light and dark stone

 

 

Still hoping for more views/evidence

 

Dave

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Hi David, I'm modelling circa 1905, but I think you deduced that judging by you second post! The pics of Saunderton are very interesting, both show the doors at the same time period circa 1905. In the first picture the door appears to be one overall dark colour, quite probably a dark chocolate. In the second picture where the door is open, the recessed panels are clearly a different colour from the rest of the door, but it all looks too dark for a combination of dark and light stone. This obviously begs the question of what colour are the lighter panels painted in, if we accept that the rest of the door is chocolate.

 

 

I think in the second photo where the door is open you are not seeing the door but inside the building the recesed panel is not the door but just part of the desk or wall in the room as you can see the floorboards.

Edited December 28, 2012 by David Bigcheeseplant

[Mikkel]

The "Great Western Railway" poster board lettering we've discussed looks more gold than light stone to me, but hard to tell of course.

 

Regarding the valances, are you going for the alternating dark and light stone version? I could never find out if there is a pattern/rule to where and when it was applied, and where not.

 

It'll be good fun when someone sees your dark chocolate livery and comes up to point out how wrong it is!

[buffalo]

...Interesting. So that proves that this style of poster board did exist at some point. Are there punctuations between the letters?

Sorry, I should have mentioned that. The leterring is "G. W. R." with the dots about one third of the distance between the letters.

 

Nick

Edited December 28, 2012 by buffalo

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I am sure I have seen poster boards at Didcot railway museum in their small relics building with gold or oche lettering shaded red.

I first picked up the dark chocolate colour scheme twenty five years ago, raised the issue with a number of groups including a few years back with station colours website who said they would not update there site as there was no evidence!!

 

As the alternative light/dark on valancing, I think it depended on the painters and may be a bit later circa 1920, Princes Risborough station I noted the following.

early photo of station 1868-1870 white or light window casements and frames!

by 1890 the original station had been enlarged a bit and now sports dark windows style.

In 1900 the station is again photographed in the dark window style the covered footbridge has all iron work in chocolate, the steel panels in the lower half of the bridge are dark stone and all the valances light stone.

The station was completly rebuilt in 1905 and was again painted in the dark door window scheme, the new footbridge again having light stone valances and dark stone panels just like the old footbridge, by 1920 the valances were alternative light and dark stone, by the mid to late 1930 there were one colour again. although the LNER took responsibilty in the 1930s for repainting so it may well be LNER as I did find traces of mid green paint when I did some scraping a few years ago.

 

David  

Edited December 28, 2012 by David Bigcheeseplant

[buffalo]

btw, how common was the alternating valence colour? Was there regional or temporal variation? Most of my examples are a uniform light colour.

Nick

edit: this was meant to have been tagged onto my previous post but didn't appear

Edited December 28, 2012 by buffalo

[The Stationmaster]

btw, how common was the alternating valence colour? Was there regional or temporal variation? Most of my examples are a uniform light colour.

 

Nick

 

edit: this was meant to have been tagged onto my previous post but didn't appear

Judging by pictures it was not common on the GWR.

 

As far as Princes Risborough is concerned it has long been my understanding that maintenance responsibility on that joint line shifted between the GWR and GCR/LNER at set intervals - probably 5 years but I'm far from certain on that.  Staff recruitment and changed annually according to past staff from the line I spoke to back in the 1960s - with the staff recruited or appointed being either LNER or GWR each alternate year.  By the mid '60s this was resulting in some problems, and complaints, as people came to retire and found their pension arrangements were different.

[wenlock]

I think in the second photo where the door is open you are not seeing the door but inside the building the recesed panel is not the door but just part of the desk or wall in the room as you can see the floorboards.

Hi again David, When I zoom into the picture, I can clearly see the floor boards, but on closer inspection, to my eyes at least the door looks like its an internal one leading to another room. If it is an internal door, then again to my eyes it looks like the recessed panelling is a lighter colour. I wonder if internal doors had a two tone paint scheme and external ones were overall chocolate.

 

The canopy on my building has a glazed roof light, I'd appreciate your and other opinions on whether the glazing bars on this structure should also be chocolate.

 

Dave

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Princes Risborough was pure GWR until 1905 and seemed to be painted in the GWR colours till at least 1920, the ownership did swap around every few years hence I think it got LNER green paint in the late 1930s at least. I will scan in and upload the photo I have a bit later.

 

David

[wenlock]

The alternate light/dark stone on valances has always looked a bit over fussy to my eyes, so I'm relieved to hear that it probably came in to existence after my chosen period!

 

Dave

[buffalo]

...The canopy on my building has a glazed roof light, I'd appreciate your and other opinions on whether the glazing bars on this structure should also be chocolate.

Camerton 1908: part of underside visible, outer framing appears dark but can't see the glazing bars.

Camerton 1910: topside visible, glazing bars darkish but they are in full sunlight, I would guess chocolate.

 

Nick

[wenlock]

Camerton 1908: part of underside visible, outer framing appears dark but can't see the glazing bars.

Camerton 1910: topside visible, glazing bars darkish but they are in full sunlight, I would guess chocolate.

 

Nick

Hi Nick, thanks for that information, it sounds right to me. Painting all those glazing bars chocolate now they're in situ is going to be fun, good job I like a challenge!

 

Thanks again

 

Dave

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Hi again David, When I zoom into the picture, I can clearly see the floor boards, but on closer inspection, to my eyes at least the door looks like its an internal one leading to another room. If it is an internal door, then again to my eyes it looks like the recessed panelling is a lighter colour. I wonder if internal doors had a two tone paint scheme and external ones were overall chocolate.

 

The canopy on my building has a glazed roof light, I'd appreciate your and other opinions on whether the glazing bars on this structure should also be chocolate.

 

Dave

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Here is a close up of the Saunderton station image I obtained in the mid 1980s taken from the original plate glass negitive, the light colour you can see is the wall there seems to be a poster board on the wall inside you can zoom in quite a bit and see the detail and even read whats on the board and this is only scanned at 1200dpi.

Do you think the photo was taken in Mowvember!

Edited December 28, 2012 by David Bigcheeseplant

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Uploaded with http://imageshack.us'>ImageShack.us

 

 

An photo of Princes Risborough around 1900 the footbridge has light stone vallance although the framework is chocolate and the lower panels dark stone, except for the white painted panel behind the signal.

 

I have a feeling that the light stone in the dark windows period was lighter than what we think light stone looks like maybe stone No1 rather than stone No.2

Edited December 28, 2012 by David Bigcheeseplant

[Buckjumper]

I think it got LNER green paint in the late 1930s at least.

 

 

LNER standard colours were brown & cream until mid-1937 when the green & cream painting schedule was introduced, though WWII put paid to many stations being repainted until the 50s.