GWR Poster boards and early Structure Colours

[N15class]

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This photo of Aylesbury c1900 shows the footbridge with a one colour awining while the second photo that I posted before shows the striped awining so like Princes Risbough the striped valance can be dated 1907-1920

In the upper photo the columns and the window, to me look to be lighter than the doors. Wood these be dark stone rather than chocolate, or is it due to fading?

[David Bigcheeseplant]

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Here is a close up of the top photo I think the window is the same colour as the doors, the end wall is south facing and not shaddowed by the canopy, I still think these are Chocolate, the same as the columns except the part near the top which apears to light stone.

 

David 

Edited January 1, 2013 by David Bigcheeseplant

[N15class]

I have not studied the GWR colours as it is not what I model, I just go by what I see, so am always willing to learn.

I have seen on the close up you just posted, what looks to be a dark band around the columns at the colour change, To me this is nearer the door colour, is it because it is black? 

 

 

For a strange railway

Edited January 1, 2013 by N15class

[Mikkel]

 

Apologies for diverting the topic for a moment, but what is this item? Looks fascinating - as does the livery it carries.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Mikkel

[The Stationmaster]

Apologies for diverting the topic for a moment, but what is this item? Looks fascinating - as does the livery it carries.

 

Looks to me very much like a travelling safe (although as it's not not painted in the later style or with the final style of lettering I can't be absolutely certain).  Basically it was a drop safe with two sets of keys - one at the sending station and another at the receiving station or cash office - and it should have painted on it the name of the sending (=owning) station.

 

They were used to remit cash from those stations where there were no local banking facilities or the bank was too remote from the station to allow cash to be safely taken to it.  The sending station put its cash bag and remittance slip into the safe through a drop hatch and off it went to either the receiving station or a cashier's office.  Usually the safe came back empty but on one occasion I believe they were used for wages cash being sent to stations.  They also went on nominated train services, in the Guard's van and were in use well into the 1960s.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Here is a clouse up, seems to say Aylesbury to Paddington 

[The Stationmaster]

Here is a clouse up, seems to say Aylesbury to Paddington 

 

Definitely a travelling safe (sometimes referred to, incorrectly, as a 'cash box').  Incidentally I forgot to add that in some cases because they were drop safes it was the custom for intermediate stations to also add their cash bags (these were all individually padlocked) to the safe when the train called, but they couldn't open the safe.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

It seems strange you would leave a safe unattended on a platform.

 

David

[Mikkel]

That's what I was thinking. But maybe it was empty. Or it was just a different age.

 

Note the woman in the white top on the opposite platform though. Looks like she's eyeing it closely. Maybe we've solved a robbery after all these years :-)

Edited January 2, 2013 by Mikkel

[wenlock]

 

Note the woman in the white top on the opposite platform though. Looks like she's eyeing it closely. Maybe we've solved a robbery after all these years :-)

Or maybe she's just wondering why the man crossing the tracks is looking at her and clapping!

[buffalo]

But why is she wearing a cowboy hat? Perhaps she has mistaken his oil can for a milk jug and is asking him for a cup of tea from his urn?

Nick

[The Stationmaster]

It seems strange you would leave a safe unattended on a platform.

 

David

That used to happen right into the 1960s David.  The one at Aylesbury looks to be on the Down platform from my limited knowledge of the place so will more than likely be empty and waiting to be barrowed across to the booking office.  But they were left on platforms when they were 'loaded' although usually staff were nearby although there was the big advantage that most people didn't know what they were and if they did it took two people to lift them - they were not teh sort of thing you could run, or even walk, off with.

 

BTW the BR 'livery was the frames edges (c2-3" wide) all round in black, central area of all the sides a pale brown, all other ironwork black, they were lettered BR(W) in plain block capitals in the same place that this one is lettered G.W.R. but with closer spacing and place names were either italics or plain lettering.  Thos was probably the same as the final GWR style as there were still a few about c.1960 lettered 'GWR' in a plain font with no stops between the letters.  All lettering was white and I've an idea that sometimes it was shaded black but can't be certain on that as it's a long time since I last saw one.

[Miss Prism]

Jeez, I come back from a week away from RMweb to find that the whole history of GWR structure colours has been deftly overturned... 

gwr.org.uk will reflect the evidence being posted here, but it may take a little while to get my head around the extent of the changes needed, and it is likely to be an incremental process. 

 

Mikkel's point about the need to reset and rethink our perceptions every time we revisit old photos is very pertinent, but we probably also need to recognise that the 3-colour (or even 4-colour) states may be location and time-window constricted. Most stations were built and painted by local contractors - if we are still confused as to exactly what constitutes the application areas of the various stone colours, there's no reason to assume those contractors were any better informed. History is rarely as logical as we might wish it to be.

I suppose an initial obvious issue is to try to determine the first appearance date of white window frames.

[Miss Prism]

Given the significance of the content in this thread, I've asked Andy Y to rename it 'GWR Poster boards and early Structure Colours'.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

 

I suppose an initial obvious issue is to try to determine the first appearance date of white window frames.

There is a bit of  a problem as it seems very early photos of some GWR stations up to 1870 do have light window frames, as I have photos of Princes Risborough (1868-1870), Loudwater (pre 1870) and two photos of Marlow Road later circa 1870 that all have light windows, by 1900 at least all these stations the window frames had gone to chocolate colour. 

[The Stationmaster]

I have photos/postcards (not entirely sure which and I think at least one of them is copyright so can't be scanned) of Horsehay & Dawley and Corwen stations showing starkly white looking window framing, set in a surround of a much darker colour suggesting to me at least white/chocolate.  Both of these picture are Edwardian - Corwen very obviously so, Horsehay & Dawley not so obviously but enough to reach that conclusion I think.

[asmay2002]

There is a bit of  a problem as it seems very early photos of some GWR stations up to 1870 do have light window frames, as I have photos of Princes Risborough (1868-1870), Loudwater (pre 1870) and two photos of Marlow Road later circa 1870 that all have light windows, by 1900 at least all these stations the window frames had gone to chocolate colour. 

 

I think it may be advisable to look a little wider than just the GWR and start thinking about national trends in house/building decoration in the Victorian and Edwardian eras.  I'm sure the GWR followed fashion using its own colours just as much as any other individual or organisation did.  This sort of information is available for house restorers and the like in terms of general trends in the use of colors and patterns of decoration.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I did raise that that style of application may have followed the fashion of the time earlier in this thread and if it had anything to do with the general trend following Prince Albert’s death and Queen Victoria going into morning for the rest of her reign when dark colours were very much in vogue.

I do think there were exceptions to the dark window scheme, and wooden buildings do on occasions seem to have light sashes with very dark frames.

I also wonder how GWR painters worked were they allocated to a division and just painted in a gang a certain number of stations which would take for example 5-7 years by which time they finished the last station they dropped back to the first station again, If this was the case it would explain why many in the same division had a uniform look.

I have now looked through my Broad Gauge books (All photos pre 1892) and photos and the dark window scheme can be seen from Paddington to Penzance, so I think it must be taken as a standard application across the whole of the GWR system and any alternatives were a local variation. We need to consider pre-grouping companies like the Cambrian who would have had their own liveries. But it would be interesting to look to see if these pre-group company stations were repainted after 1923 with the light or dark window styles as this is around the time we start to see the white window sashes and casements being applied more generally.

[The Stationmaster]

I also wonder how GWR painters worked were they allocated to a division and just painted in a gang a certain number of stations which would take for example 5-7 years by which time they finished the last station they dropped back to the first station again, If this was the case it would explain why many in the same division had a uniform look.

 

Station painting (and maintenance) was carried out by District/Divisional Civil Engineers' staff and I presume (but its is a presumption) that like the S&T painters they worked on a rotating system through all the stations (except possibly the largest) or a group of stations on their patch.  This certainly seemed to be the pattern post 1948 and like most arrangements in former GWR territory I doubt it was much changed from what happened pre 1948.

[Mikkel]

I've had a look at the GWR Lambourn station, which was constructed new in 1909 and well photographed at the time (see  "The Lambourn Branch" by Robertson & Simmons and other pubs).

 

Windows and doors:

* As newly constructed in 1909, the windows and doors are freshly painted in a very dark colour, clearly chocolate.

* In 1914 the station is known to have been re-painted

* In 1919 the windows and doors are still very dark chocolate

* Nothing clear from the 20s (anyone?)

* In 1930 the station was re-painted

* Nothing clear from the 1930s (anyone?)

* In 1950 the station is still in GWR colours, and the windows are in all-over dark stone (sic)

* In 1952 the station was re-painted

* In 1954 the station is in BR livery and the windows are white

 

If anyone knows of good photos from the 20s and 30s it would be interesting (I have already checked the LVR website but photos there of little use for this purpose).

 

Poster boards:

There are two particular poster boards on an end wall which feature in several photos through the years:

* In 1909 their frames are chocolate (p110)

* In 1919 their frames are light stone (p105, I don't think it is a trick of the light)

* In BR days the frames are dark again :-)

Edited January 4, 2013 by Mikkel

[David Bigcheeseplant]

My photo research seems to show that the chocolate window scheme was still being appliled in 1919, although the white windows seems to have been applied by 1932 as a photo in Banbury & Cheltenham vol 1 of Cheltenham Spa station with white glazing bars to the platform screen in 1932.

 

As I mentioned before the light stone seems darker than the light stone in the dark window scheme, so my guess is that Stone No.2 replaced Stone No.1 as the ligher colour when the the chocolate doors and windows scheme was dropped. So when was the change?

 

David

Edited January 5, 2013 by David Bigcheeseplant

[martin256]

Hi there!

 

I am hope my answer is usefull to you. You can make GWR poster boards with iClickn'Print. The application is online and has many available fonts you can use. Moreover, you can recreate nice designs for GWR poster boards.

[Ian Smith]

I am in the process of building a 2mm Scale model of Moretonhampstead Goods Shed, and am unsure what colours to paint it. My model will be based c.1905/6, I have looked in my copy of Great Western Way (1978 version) and from this discussion thread it would appear that things have moved on somewhat from the "white window frames and light and dark stone woodwork".  I have been feverishly looking through all manner of books in my possession (including "Great Wester Architecture") for period images of goods sheds that might illustrate what I need to know.

 

In short, colours of windows and doors (including the large doors for the entry ways of railway and road traffic), colours of internal woodwork (including roof supporting structure), colour of an internal crane, etc.

 

I have posted a photo of my build to date for info.  The inside of Moretonhampstead Goods Shed is a complete mystery to me, so the road traffic entrance area, crane, and the eventual roof support structure will be for the most part conjecture although based on a couple of internal views I have of Newbury goods shed.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Ian

[buffalo]

Hi Ian,

 

Some discussion of the interior of the Newbury goods shed photo in Edwardian Enterprise and the much later one in Vaughan's GW Architecture here, here and, IIRC, in Mikkel's blog. I lean towards whitewashed interior brick, white timber, some details and inside window frames in dark stone and the crane in grey. Window frames might be chocolate, but I'd be wary of taking some of the ideas on station buildings in this topic and applying them directly to goods sheds.

 

Nick

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I would go for whitewashed walls, chocolate or dark stone for windows or doors but leaning towards chocolate, The crane in the Newbury photos looks darker but not too sure where the grey reference came from.

David