Satan's Goldfish Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Like it says, when did they change? Usual suspect internet searches reveal nothing so i thought i'd ask here. What was the last year of use of Cross Arm type Pantographs? I've seen 1 picture that looks to be from the 80s and always liked the look of them but not sure if they fit into my era (and what i can get away with blagging as a representation of 1!) And what year did the Brecknell-Willis type start getting fitted to 86s? I need to replace a couple of broken ones on my old Hornby models and want to make sure i get it roughly right with the replacements. Ta guys. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted February 14, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 14, 2013 Only a few 86s carried cross-arm pans, mostly they had Stone Faiveleys. Brecknell Willis high speed pans started to appear around 84 though they were prone to being swapped around (and back again at times, some locos that had BWs later lost them when they went to Anglia) Which 86s do you have and what era are you modelling? Andi BTW that's a very odd looking fish in your picture... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 i know, i'm slacking, i'll change it back to one of my fish soon! The 2 that need attention in the pant department are both Hornby: Swallow livery, which i'm thinking B-W for. And rail blue (Phoenix) which i'd like x-arm for. Region is GEML, i've seen a picture of a rail blue with an x-arm which i believe was about 1980 on that line. My era of interest is a very loose 85 - 99. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted February 14, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 14, 2013 GE mainline didn't see BW pans until MUCH later, all the 86s we had were switched back to SF pans before Willesden sent them to us. I'm not aware of 219 ever having carried a cross arm but I may be wrong, but no-one actually makes a cross arm pan in 4mm anyway, so probably best to stick to SF for that one. I worked at Ipswich as a secondman when we were changing 86s and 47s at Ipswich, great fun at the time and that is what Dagworth is based on. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 Think i have an answer to the x-arm one, just found this showing 86420 in Feb 86: http://www.flickr.com/photos/robinidle/4937029450/ I'm guessing that's rail blue despite the black and white picture and shouldn't be too tough to remove the 'Phoenix' name plates and give it a number change. It may not be a GE loco but i'm sure i could pretend there's been a loan! On the x-arm pan front, it's probably completely inacurate but i have a broken old HO Roco 4 wheel DB locomotive of some description in my spares pile that has a good x-arm pantograph on top. I work on the philosophy that if it looks roughly right then that's fine, and if i can do it without spending too much money then the wife won't hurt me either. I did find a site stating that just the last 86 had a x-arm fitted but that was destroyed by fire while still carrying 'E' numbers. The above picture contradicts that somewhat..... Onto the Swallow example then, when did the BW start getting fitted to GE 86s? The Anglia 86 i have has a BW and i think i've seen them on some of Freightliner's 86s too. If they wouldn't have appeared on IC Swallow on the GE then what about RES 86s? i may need to do some pan swaps! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted February 14, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 14, 2013 I have photos of the following with cross arm pans, all BR blue unless otherwise stated. Numbers with a ? against them are relying on photo captions for identity, otherwise I can read the number in the photo. All on LMR except 213. 010/016?/030/035? 205/213(at Ipswich)/221/222/227(In intercity livery (in anglia thanks EWD))/229/248/252(intercity livery) 312/316 I have one photo of 209 in swallow at Ipswich which appears to have a BW pan, this is the ONLY one so fitted that I have been able to find on passenger work on Anglian lines. 238 I have photos of in IC un-named with a BW on the LMR but when she came to us and was named she reverted to a SF pan. Hope that helps. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 Blimey, quite a few of them then! interesting too that some made it into IC livery still with the x-arm, food for thought...... Here was the doner x-arm, looking at it it's more in line with EM1 1500v DC style than 25Kv AC style so that needs re-thinking. Ah well, it cost £9.55 when new apparently, how long has it been since a new loco cost that?! SF Pan for the Swallow it will have to be. Cheers for the help Dagworth, i think i know what i need to do now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted February 14, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 14, 2013 Which parts are broken on the ones you need to replace? I have LOTS of bits of Hornby pans of various types and may be able to help. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 In total i need to replace 4 pans, 2 BW completely missing on class 90s and 2 completely missing on the class 86s (Which is what happens when you give fragile bits of model to a pair of young boys!) Lots of repair work needed. Just doing a little bit more investigating on the x-arm model option, some Lima 87s came with x-arms, but they look the same style as is on the Roco thing above. So has Lima got it very wrong or is that actually option? Cheers again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LIMA-CLASS-87-Bo-Bo-ELECTRIC-LOCOMOTIVE-/400410544371?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item5d3a5408f3 Somehow, i think that looks better than what the prototype seems to be! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted February 15, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2013 Lima got it wrong too, hence my original comment about no cross arm pan existing in 4mm, they used an existing DC pan and an underscale base, the pan mountings on the Lima (and current Hornby) 87s are too small. I have a couple of scratchbuilt cross arms on my ACs, here is my 87004 with a proper cross arm pan, quite different to what Lima fitted. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 86030 at Stratford, 16 Nov 1984. Seem to recall it was early days of testing/training. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 Guys, with these pictures of real style cross-arm pantographs you are teasing me! For a little variation i think i definately need one in my life. May be a while before i get to tinker with it (added to the outstanding tasks list) but any construction hints/commission Dagworth? Pheonix can get turned into 86030. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted February 15, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2013 86030 hasn't got the flexicoil springs that 86219 has, changing those to the triangular brackets is quite a big job, which is partly why I gave you a list of /2s with cross arms. No 86/0 worked passenger trains in service in Anglia, only 86/2s I am reliably informed that a proper cross arm pan may be coming to market in the not too distant future... Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 Cheers for the heads up, i did miss that major detail difference! Will keep my eye out for the pan coming to market. (Just for you i've brought some fish back too ;-) ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon H Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 I am reliably informed that a proper cross arm pan may be coming to market in the not too distant future... And about time too! It is now 29 years since I wrote my article on scratchbuilding them in the now defunct 'Model Railways' magazine. The only commercial versions I have ever seen were factory fitted to Japanese models, who don't seem to have any problems producing them. Here is a picture of one I made earlier... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 I'm confused. Andi in your picture of one you've built on top of an 87, the top section has a single diagonal brace on each side. But Gordon yours has 2 diagonal braces on each side. I was to believe there was only 1 design of cross arm, or has the internet lied to me yet again? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted February 15, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2013 I'm confused. Andi in your picture of one you've built on top of an 87, the top section has a single diagonal brace on each side. But Gordon yours has 2 diagonal braces on each side. I was to believe there was only 1 design of cross arm, or has the internet lied to me yet again? I have photos in Modern Locos Illustrated no199 'The Class 87s' that show both types, single brace and double brace... Pantographs are a minefield! Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Another Stratford shot, summer 85, 86227, one of those mentioned in post 6 above, with a close-up crop to try and make sense of the panto against the rest of the knitting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted February 15, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2013 Another Stratford shot, summer 85, 86227, one of those mentioned in post 6 above, with a close-up crop to try and make sense of the panto against the rest of the knitting. Excellent, that proves 227 and so I can remove the question mark against it, cheers Also double bracing on that one... Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 I've also found one of that list, 86252, photo'd at Atherstone in blue in June 83. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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