BRealistic Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 The pix below are my take on a WR-looking engine shed, which is actually based on the appearance of the surviving buildings at Newton Abbot (more a ‘works’ than a shed, I believe). As I’m not far off completing the ‘modelling stage’ I’m now wondering how best to do the painting and weathering, particularly of the paper slates and the DAS clay walls (Having never made a paper/card/foam board/DAS clad model before). Re the slates (which are cut from thin, grey paper that’s been with me since about 1975), I’m not sure whether I ought to coat them with an artist matt varnish first, as I have in mind using a water-based paint (the matt interior house paint that comes in tester pots… of which I have many… and used as a base for the ridge tiles (which are cereal-packet card - not Kellogg’s, by the way, but Nestlé’s, which is nice and white and a bit ‘crisper’). Re the scribed stonework, I have in mind using the same paints, but not with a matt varnish coat as I imagine producing the appearance of stonework would benefit from the paint/washes being absorbed. As far as the mortar is concerned (off white lime), I’m wondering whether I ought to ‘apply’ this first before painting the stones, or after, when the stones are dry. In the latter case, I’ve heard of powders… or even DAS… being worked into the joints and then brushed off the stone faces. My fear is I’m gonna ruin 'months' of work… so I’ve prepared a few slate and stonework samples to try a few techniques out first. However, I know there’s an abundance of expertise and experience out there, so any tips and ‘how-you-did-its’ would be most welcomed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain C Robinson Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Hi Alan, Well, first off I must say that this is a superb model. Very sharp, clean and accurate stonework, dimensionally very tight and all in all something that makes me gnash my scale ruler with envy at your skills. I like the way you've used brick and the louvre clerestory is very consistent...a hard thing to do. You are right, painting will make or break the model. No pressure then! I would definitely varnish the slates...I have had a few paper slate roofs go wavy on me, even when using oil-based paints...so a couple of light passes with matt varnish, letting each coat dry for 20 mins would be a good idea. As the slates are self-coloured...looks like Daler "Murano" paper or similar...you could try dry-brushing with a light grey/blue rather than painting individual slates. Obviously, check on Google for some photos of buildings in the local area modelled to check whether the predominant colour is greeny-grey or blue-grey..etc. Telling my granny to suck eggs, probably, apologies as I expect you know all this. As for painting the stonework, I can only say what I do. I make up a thinnish mixture of Humbrol acrylic paints...the colours will depend on your area modelled. A first base coat is applied. I find that leaving the mortar courses to show through doesn't work, as the Das is too white. What you could do is mix up an off-white batch and only paint the mortar courses (you'll need a small, stiff brush) . Then I would dry brush the base grey/brown whatever onto the mortar colour, obviously just painting the stones. I pick out individual stones with a subtle variation in the main colour afetrwards. Your scribing is so clean and consistent that I think this might well work. I should say that I haven't tried this myself, as my scribing tends to be much deeper. I don't think applying a pointing course of Das Afterwards would work, unless you were incredibly fussy and scaled yourself down...but I would be happy to be proved wrong! I'm sorry if I have told you what you already know...but I will be watching with great curiosity to see how this progresses! Good luck! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRealistic Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 Thanks so much for your advice, Iain. Really appreciated every word! My mind is much clearer now, and I'm feeling more confident, which can't be bad. For the dry brushing, was it you (on your web site) that recommended using 'chisel' brushes? I might pop out and get a few sizes this afternoon as clearly I'll be needing a couple at least. So Iain, thanks again, and I promise to post a few more pix as I go! And thanks, too, to those who've 'liked' my post. If anyone's interested I could explain how I went about making some of the parts... the louvres, for example, and the gutters and ridge tiles etc. Just ask! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain C Robinson Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Yes, please let us know how you made the parts, that would be most interesting. I do find chisel brushes better for dry-brushing. As you don't have too much surface texture on your individual stones I think this could work well. They don't have to be too expensive, synthetic ones will be fine. cheers, Iain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan downes Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 I agree with Iain, an absolutely superb model and if I could produce such skilled stonework like that, I'm darned if I would paint it! Ians advice here is the bes to take I would say, but before I even attempted to paint such beautifull workemanship like that, I would knock up a test section first then experiment with wood dyes which will soak into the compound as opposed to just sitting on top of it. But PLEEEZE, don't ruin it!!! Allan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRealistic Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 I'll certainly be doing my best not to (ruin it) Allan!I suspect you'd have finished a whole village (or even a city centre!) in the time it's taken me to get this far, and to a far better standard to boot. Thing is, I seemed to spend more time umming and ahhing over how to build the thing than actually putting it together. Took an absolute age deciding how to construct the louvres... but once I'd made a jig it wasn't too difficult at all. I counted the pieces the other day to satisfy my silly curiosity, and excluding the individual slates and tiles and the 16 pieces of 'lead' flashing, there were just over 120!!!Anyway, I have a few pieces to experiment on (and will probably make a few more!) and will certainly be trying out your wood dye idea... Come to think of it, I have a full set of the Modelmates weathering dyes, so I'll try them first. They do a 'limescale effect', and with a bit of discolouration, this might be an alternative to Iain's approach of an initial 'mortar course' mix.And thanks, thanks, thanks for your kindest of comments!Cheers for now... must knock together a few 'How I did it's' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aberdare Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Hi Alan What a fantastic model you have made and I hope the one I am currently building looks as good, the louvres are really neat and I am hoping to tackle mine tonight and hopefully get somewhere near that standard. At least if I mess up I will have a 'how to' to follow. As for the painting advice I think you have all you need, varnishing the paper slates is a must as I messed up my platform stones by not doing it, best of luck with the painting which is the part I dread being colour blind. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan downes Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 I'll certainly be doing my best not to (ruin it) Allan! I suspect you'd have finished a whole village (or even a city centre!) in the time it's taken me to get this far, and to a far better standard to boot. Thing is, I seemed to spend more time umming and ahhing over how to build the thing than actually putting it together. Took an absolute age deciding how to construct the louvres... but one I'd made a jig it wasn't too difficult at all. I counted the pieces the other day to satisfy my silly curiosity, and excluding the individual slates and tiles and the 16 pieces of 'lead' flashing, there were just over 120!!! Anyway, I have a few pieces to experiment on (and will probably make a few more!) and will certainly be trying out your wood dye idea... Come to think of it, I have a full set of the Modelmates weathering dyes, so I'll try them first. They do a 'limescale effect', and with a bit of discolouration, this might be an alternative to Iain's approach of an initial 'mortar course' mix. And thanks, thanks, thanks for your kindest of comments! Cheers for now... must knock together a few 'How I did it's' Hi Alan, never listen to me, do it your own way! Let me try and explain this 'Time to build it' thing. What you have to remember Alan, is that I did it 24/7 ( modelling that is, although....) and while you're probably working at it on a 'when I can' basis, the actual hours - not weeks - that you spent on it are no more than mine would have been - where I quite often put a 12 hour day in, most modellers with a job to hold down, might only get a couple of hours in during the evening and maybe a few more over the weekend between, decorating, mowing the lawn, mending the kids bikes, straightening out the wifes bent front bumber - and DO read that in the right context! - and everything else that is seemingly designed to get it the way of modelling - AND I would never have said to a better standard and when you are churning out building after building in a desperate attempt to meet a deadline, then familiarity with what you're almost doing in your sleep, means that you only spend about 10% think and 90% application - if not, the wife don't get the new hat and I have to sell the Benz! Regards. Allan, built for speed, but not for quality ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRealistic Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 What an amazing bloke you are, Allan. A genius at being modest! I won't say any more... except that you're a bit of a Merc yourself... combining speed with quality!! You can stop reading now as I'm about to bore the pants off everyone by revealing how I made the RIDGE TILES!!!!! A tiny detail that figures on just about every building, but can sometimes be a pain to make. Not any more.... (and I'm really hoping this a 'new' approach) Having used a nice thin paper to represent the slates (the mass-produced Welsh ones were barely a quarter of an inch thick) I wanted something a little more substantial for the clay ridge tiles (which are normally 2 or 3 times the thickness of the slate. Cereal box card fitted the bill, which in my case means the Nestlé variety, as the reverse is a nice white colour and the card itself is more ‘crisp’ compared to Kellogg’s. I found it hard to get a straight and regular apex when folding the card, but the idea came to me (when dozing off to sleep) of utilizing the ‘ready-folded’ corners of the cereal boxes. When I looked the next morning, however, I noticed there was the narrowest of indents along all of them… but, thankfully, on the inside, these didn’t exist… and instead there was a nice little ‘nib’ that provided a bit of definition (you can see it in the first photo) Using the middle of the nib as a centre line, I drew parallel lines 3.5mm on either side and cut out the strips. Two corner lengths were more than sufficient. I then painted them a basic terracotta colour (from the left–overs in a can of ‘matt emulsion’ used to paint part of the living room) and later cut the strips into 6mm lengths (tiles are normally about 18” long). I found a single edged blade good for this, and remember, it’s the inner white side you’re painting… which becomes the ‘exposed ‘ side of the tile. When applying them to the model with PVA I did find it useful to score the underside (that’s the printed side) with a scalpel first. This helped in the folding (between finger and thumb) and gave the PVA something to grab/soak into. When the roof’s complete you can touch up the exposed edges of the end tiles with the same terracotta… and later do a bit of weathering as well. I hope that makes sense and that the pix are self-explanatory… (sorry about the quality, though) Next up, the gutters!.. another detail that can be a pain to 'get right'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain C Robinson Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Alan: The ridge tile idea...genius! I shall be using that idea right away. I note that your slates look just the right thickness, too. cheers, Iain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted March 28, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 28, 2013 Lovely bit of work, Alan, and it captures that 'Newton Abbot look' to a 'T'. Is this to 4mm scale? I wouldn't presume to counter anything that master modellers like Allan and Iain have said, but one thing that occurs to me is that painting a structure like this may be akin to painting a Townstreet 'plastercast' structure, which takes Humbrol enamels very well for the main brick colour. The mortar then follows, as a water colour, by capilliary action, and this method on the Townstreet buildings that I've tackled is very effective indeed. A test piece first, however, is still advised! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRealistic Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 Thanks Tim. I think that's one for the test bed! Must make a list! Edit... to confirm it's 4mm. My eyesight's not completely gone yet! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan downes Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Alan, just a little tip if I may about folding thin card. Score the back deeply with a bluntish point - I use a blunt dart - then fold it up against a good steel straight edge then gently fold ot right over until both sides meet then turn it over and run down the fold with your fingers. However, if you try doing this with the strip cut to size, it will invarioubly end up curved but not if you cut it well over size - say 30 mil - then fold and cut to actuel size once you have. this can also work to some extent on softer thin plastics but just fold enough to make the bend otherwise if you try folding it right over there's every liklehood that it will snap. Hope that helps. But before I go, here's a quickie re roof ridging. What I usually do is to prepare a large sheet of postcard quality card - any printers will sell you sheets of this at about 20p a sheet - by mixing up a quantity of polyfilla mixed with 50% water and 50% PVA to a creamy consistency then using a large 2 inch brush, paste it over the card in a reasonably trhin layer and stipple it by dabbing the end of the brush into the polly paste until you have an even 'pitted' texture all over. When dry, lightly sand it over then colour - I use wood dyes for this dusted over very lightly with acrylic mat black aerosol - then Blunt score the rigge tile joints in, bend the strips as outlined above then just simply glue in place along the ridge of your roof for which i use meduim grade superglue for an instant hold. Anyway, if you study some of my pictures - you'll find 'em somewhere on here! - you will see what I mean if you take a close look at the tiling and ridging on the buildings. Best regards and I'll see if I can find a decent picture of a roof for you and upload it under this post - just hang on! Allan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan downes Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 There you go Alan, roofs galore!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aberdare Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Thanks for the ridge tile ideas on here, having been unhappy with card ones once and reverting to plastic it is good to see a couple of methods that both give great results, at least I can now be happy with the results I will achieve on my Engine shed. Thanks Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRealistic Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 I'm living and learning, Allan... even at my age. That tip about folding card 'opened my eyes' to where I was going wrong! And about your superbly executed 'sea of roofs' (if only, in England, we could maintain such consistency in the 'roofscape') I have to admit that the number of buildings on my (one and only)layout will be miserably/purposefully few, which is half the reason I'm able to spend so much time on the shed! It's going to be interesting, I feel, to know your methods for making guttering, as I'm going to bore everyone to tears by describing how I went about making mine for the shed! So here goes... I didn’t have to think twice about how to make them as I came up with this idea about 30 years ago when I was dabbling in 2mm scale (I could actually see things then!). I wanted something that wasn’t simply a long and awkward, fragile U-shape… and it had to be easy to handle and easy to attach to the eaves of the roof. I decided to use the tin-foil that oven-ready meals come in, which is lovely and (realistically) thin but at the same time has a certain strength. The end result is in Photo 1, which actually shows the end of a run… with what I’ll call it’s ‘closing piece’ in place. To the method… I first cut out a nicely squared rectangle of foil and flatten it with one of those wallpaper seam rollers. If it curls a bit, just roll the reverse until it lies flat. The length of the rectangle is as long as you can easily manage, while the width depends on whether you want to be ‘ultra’ prototypical (in which case it’ll scale to the section lengths of ‘real’ cast iron guttering) or whether you simply want the pieces to match the length of your model. The latter’s my choice, and each side of the shed is made from 4 pieces. Bear in mind that a little overlap is needed… and that it’s easy to snip a piece off to shorten ‘the last one’ so that the fit is just right. So be generous with your measurements. I’ve found a Stanley Knife is best for cutting the foil. Just take it easy with the pressure otherwise it ‘grabs’. For the next stage… which is essentially the last, before painting and fitting… I made a little plastic and metal-rod jig. This is shown in Photo 2, and couldn’t be much simpler! A thin piece of plastic stuck to a nice thick piece for strength, and then a short length of metal rod stuck along the edge of the thin piece. The rod (formerly part of the ‘stretcher’ that keeps those paper lampshades in shape) has a diameter of near enough 1.5mm, so the guttering comes out at a little bit more… which equates nicely to 5” stuff. Hard to describe how you get the half-round gutter shape ‘into’ your rectangular piece of foil. It’s a matter of ‘shoving’ the foil into the base of the rod, securing it there as best you can (I use a used Stanley blade), then curving the rectangle over the rod and then forcing it into the base of the rod on the ‘higher’ side. You soon get the hang of it! Then, following a line about 5mm from the ‘half-round’ you’ve formed (to give it what I’ll call a lip), cut it from the rectangle with your Stanley Knife. Repeat this process till you’ve made all the guttering you need... and if I can do it… and if what I've described isn't clear, you can see what I mean in the last two photos! To add the ‘closing piece’ to the lengths at the end of a run, simply snip a small piece of foil, place it on your work mat, add a touch of super glue to the appropriate end of your length of guttering (I used Slo-Zap Thick CA) and place IT onto the foil… and allow to dry. You then snip off the excess foil to suit the half-round end. If you line up the ‘top of the half-round’ of the gutter with a straight edge on the small piece of foil, you won’t have to snip this edge. You can see which ‘snippers’ I use, and they’re great! I insert the finished lengths into grooves in an off cut of dense polystyrene (at least I think that’s what it is) then spay them with Halfords Primer… to be followed by colour of choice. Finally, start at one end of the roof and attach the lengths one by one along the eaves, fitting them snugly along it’s edge. Overlap as you go, and, for the last one (with it’s opposite ‘closing piece’) offer it up to the eaves, judge the length required, then snip off any excess (not at the ‘closing piece’ end!!). I seem to remember using PVA for this, and PVA again for the first row of slates that will hide the lips. If you accidentally deform the gutters, just use a blunted cocktail stick and a small piece of foamboard (or the like) to caress them back into shape! That’s it, I think, job done. Next up those louvres… which aren’t half as complicated as they might seem…. But I may do some modelling tomorrow…or is that today?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain C Robinson Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Alan, this is another great idea of yours. The photos are really helpful as I immediately understood what you were doing (not the brightest of folk, me) and I will have a go at this for one of my own projects. I normally either use the Dave Rowe method, which is to scrawk a line in a sheet of .060" styrene with the wrong end of a file, so that you get a U shaped trough. I then file the outer lower edge so that it is quarter round, then trim off, apply paper "brackets and affix to the wall under the eaves. Little half-round capping pieces complete the illusion. When pressed by a deadline, I simply use Evergreen half-round section...quick and dirty, but surprisingly effective. Your method, however, takes the honours for the most realistic. cheers, Iain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRealistic Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 I didn't realise how long-winded my 'how I did it' description was until after I uploaded it. Far too long... and not always clear. Oh well, will try and do better with the louvres and rely more on the pix! Anyway, glad you liked the gutter idea. I just couldn't get on with David Rowe's method (or similar) and that prompted me to find another. Just to add, I first used it in 2mm scale on a warehouse I made over 30 years ago. Here's a link to a few pix (bottom of the page, with some on page 2 showing it's current, sorry state!) I pride myself in being able to say... the slates were made from the real thing!!!! ... from a quarry dump near Totnes. Mind you, most people then think I'm crackers!! The 'clay' walls were made from Pecoscene (long since gone) and I scribed it 'wet'.. hence not the flattest of finishes. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/45430-totnes-quay-warehouses-gentrified/ Cheers for now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRealistic Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 That's good to know, Paul. Will pull my finger out and get the louvres up just as soon as I can! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan downes Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 I didn't realise how long-winded my 'how I did it' description was until after I uploaded it. Far too long... and not always clear. Oh well, will try and do better with the louvres and rely more on the pix! Anyway, glad you liked the gutter idea. I just couldn't get on with David Rowe's method (or similar) and that prompted me to find another. Just to add, I first used it in 2mm scale on a warehouse I made over 30 years ago. Here's a link to a few pix (bottom of the page, with some on page 2 showing it's current, sorry state!) I pride myself in being able to say... the slates were made from the real thing!!!! ... from a quarry dump near Totnes. Mind you, most people then think I'm crackers!! The 'clay' walls were made from Pecoscene (long since gone) and I scribed it 'wet'.. hence not the flattest of finishes. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/45430-totnes-quay-warehouses-gentrified/ Cheers for now I feel that a little word on PECOSCENE is possibly in order here and I'm affraid that it's not all good news. Now many years ago I used to use PYRUMA FIRE CEMENT for stonework which, after a time and especially if it was subjected to damp cold conditions, it would break down and crumble and I had to replace many of my earlier clients buildings with an alternative wall material free of charge. However, at the time, the late Mr Pritchard who as you probably know was the founder of PECO products, asked me if I would build a building using his all new modelling compound then report back to him with my findings. Well, the very moment that I removed the lid and dipped my fingers in it I realised that it was nothing more than PYRUMA FIRE CEMENT coloured a darker grey than was normal! However ,every time that I mentioned 'PYRUMA' in any of my articles for the Railway Modeller it was edited out and replaced with 'PECOSCENE' ! Anyway, and I should imagine after many complaints, it was taken off the market - but there is one positive way of preserving it indefinately if anyone would like to know. Allan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan downes Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Alan, this is another great idea of yours. The photos are really helpful as I immediately understood what you were doing (not the brightest of folk, me) and I will have a go at this for one of my own projects. I normally either use the Dave Rowe method, which is to scrawk a line in a sheet of .060" styrene with the wrong end of a file, so that you get a U shaped trough. I then file the outer lower edge so that it is quarter round, then trim off, apply paper "brackets and affix to the wall under the eaves. Little half-round capping pieces complete the illusion. When pressed by a deadline, I simply use Evergreen half-round section...quick and dirty, but surprisingly effective. Your method, however, takes the honours for the most realistic. cheers, Iain I've never yet produced a building with chanelled guttering, and so far, no one has ever noticed ! What I do is to cut a strip of 60 thou black styrene wide enough to float out beyond the eaves of the roof, round off the leading edge, and wide enough to sit under the roof edge onto the cieling plate by about 30 mil. There's plenty of examples of this on the pictures I've put up so a free pint for anyone who can notice it! Allan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRealistic Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 but there is one positive way of preserving it indefinately if anyone would like to know. Allan. Spill the beans Allan! I have a friend who I'm sure would very much like to know...he has a 2mm scale model of a Devon viaduct made of pecoscene back in the 80's. I know because I gave it to him last year! It needed a good home, but I'd hate to think it'll fall to pieces (although it hasn't yet!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRealistic Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 I've never yet produced a building with chanelled guttering, and so far, no one has ever noticed !Ah, yes, but people notice mine and say they're absolutely brilliant!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan downes Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Ah, yes, but people notice mine and say they're absolutely brilliant!!! And I don't doubt it for a single moment Sir! How then to preserve PYRUMA or PECOSCENE stonework. Carefully 'flood' it in the thinnest grade Superglue.This will crystalise the compound and turn it rock hard withiout effecting the colouring. Allan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRealistic Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 Carefully 'flood' it in the thinnest grade Superglue.This will crystalise the compound and turn it rock hard withiout effecting the colouring. Allan. Thanks Allan, I shall pass that on... and not to worry about colouring... when I last saw it, it was still in it's unpainted state. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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