Penzance ish track plan.

[Clagsniffer]

Ok so after finally moving into my new house I've been finalising my track plan that will be in my garage. The garage will be turned into a proper railway room and fully insulated etc.

 

I've always liked the track plan of Penzance station, and it's in a great location that would be interesting to model. The main station area is my interpretation of the real thing. Originally I wanted the diesel depot area to be based on long rock, but having no track plans of this area I've just made it up.

 

I also wanted to be able to watch the trains go by so at the back of the station the two main lines split off and disappear behind the back scene, and my thinking is for it to go down and under the station and emerge over by the loco shed. I would also need to have my fiddle yard on this lower level.

 

I know the station throat looks overly complicated but I wanted to be able to shunt trains about without fouling any trains running round the main lines.

 

The period I'm modelling is quite broad, 70's to 90's, as I couldn't commit to one decade!

 

It's taken me months to get to this stage where I'm quite happy with the design. The only things that really worry me is how prototypical the diesel depot layout is and also the idea of going down a level and back again.

 

Please feel free to add any comments or offer any advice, all comments are welcome.

[The Stationmaster]

Looks ok for a modern track layout in some respects but it really has too many slips in the station throat so is a bit old-fashioned in that respect.

[St Enodoc]

Ok so after finally moving into my new house I've been finalising my track plan that will be in my garage. The garage will be turned into a proper railway room and fully insulated etc.

 

I've always liked the track plan of Penzance station, and it's in a great location that would be interesting to model. The main station area is my interpretation of the real thing. Originally I wanted the diesel depot area to be based on long rock, but having no track plans of this area I've just made it up.

 

I also wanted to be able to watch the trains go by so at the back of the station the two main lines split off and disappear behind the back scene, and my thinking is for it to go down and under the station and emerge over by the loco shed. I would also need to have my fiddle yard on this lower level.

 

I know the station throat looks overly complicated but I wanted to be able to shunt trains about without fouling any trains running round the main lines.

 

The period I'm modelling is quite broad, 70's to 90's, as I couldn't commit to one decade!

 

It's taken me months to get to this stage where I'm quite happy with the design. The only things that really worry me is how prototypical the diesel depot layout is and also the idea of going down a level and back again.

 

Please feel free to add any comments or offer any advice, all comments are welcome.

I think there are two main challenges with your proposed plan. First, as you have spotted, the throat is very complicated. You could Improve this by moving the junction further clockwise, somewhere near the bottom right corner. This would also have the benefit of easing the gradients considerably as at the moment they will not allow you to run the sort of trains that your platforms can accommodate.

 

The second challenge is the fiddle yard. This ought to be exposed to view so that you can reverse and remarshal trains easily. I think I would try to squeeze the width of Long Rock down to about 18" and have a dead end fiddle yard of similar width in front of it, at the lower level. A 3ft wide board is more than usually recommended but since most of the action will be towards the front with only the main lines at the back it should be OK. I wouldn't worry too much about the Long Rock layout given that the prototype main line was singled in 1974 and the whole Long Rock/Ponsandane complex is very long and narrow. Just make sure you have enough room for your DMUs to get in and out without fouling the diesel shed.

[Clagsniffer]

Thanks for the replies guys. I was worried about the gradients, as I must admit I have no idea about such things as I've never used them before. I've been working off roughly seven coach trains plus the loco, what sort of length would I need for a gradient that was suitable for this length of train?

 

I had considered using helix so I didn't need to worry about the gradients but I'm not sure if this would complicate matters further?

 

Good point about the dmu's fouling the diesel shed, I'll try and re jig things a bit.

 

Thanks again for taking the time to look and give feed back.

[St Enodoc]

Gradients take up a lot of space. You need about 60 mm clearance from the top of the rail, plus the thickness of whatever is above the lower track (baseboard frames, trackbed, track itself, etc). For your train lengths I would try not to go steeper than about 1 in 60 particularly as parts of the gradients will be on curves. Assuming your overall station baseboard thickness was about 60 mm, you woudl need a length of (60 + 60) x 60 = 7200 mm from the top to the bottom of the gradient, which is probably longer than you have room for. It can help to split the gradient between the two tracks, so one rises as the other falls, which gives you the same vertical separation in half the length, but there is not really scope for this with your plan. A helix would probably take up too much room in your garage, as to get the necessary vertical separation with a 1 in 60 gradient you would need a helix of about 1500 mm diameter.

 

A possible solution would be not to have any gradients on the main lines at all. You could run the ovals along the front of the station, which would mean that you wouldn't need to burrow under it. A gentle gradient from the junction up to the station, and down to the fiddle yard, would give a bit of visual separation. If you put the junction to the station in the bottom right corner and that to the fiddle yard in the top right corner your trains would have to run round almost the full circuit to get from one end to the other, which would give you plenty of opportunity to watch them go by. The continuous run would still be there for "testing".

 

I hope this makes sense - I don't use layout planning software so I can't sketch out easily what I mean.

[jon_1066]

1 in 40 minimum I would think and try for 1 in 50.  1 in 50 and 100 mm separation gives you a length of 5 m.  100 mm is not a lot  of room for fiddling around in the fiddle yard so more would be nice.  You can save space by have one track descend as another rises so you could half that distance to 2.5 m.  However you can't do that in a station so I would second the suggestion of moving the junction around clockwise.

 

Use of a traverser would allow you to pull the trains out from under the diesel depot thus giving you access for fiddling.

[Joseph_Pestell]

If the garage is only going to be used for railway, best solution may be to put the fiddleyard on a peninsula down the centre of the room. That gets rid of the need for any gradients and gives good access. Alternatively, put the terminus on the peninsula.

 

In the hidden area, worth looking at a return loop. As you are modelling diesel area, should be possible to use quite small radius curves.

 

PS: Agree with the others that the junction between continuous run and lines to terminus wants to be on the diesel depot side of the layout. That makes for a simpler station throat and allows for larger radius curves on the RH side of the layout.

[St Enodoc]

Here's a very crude pencil sketch of what I was talking about.

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just to confirm my understanding of OP plan, garage is 15'8 x 9' interior?

 

Will try to sketch something later on and post.

[Clagsniffer]

Oh dear, I've got that horrible sinking feeling! It's taken me months to get to this point

 

I guess that's the trouble when you pick a terminus station but want through trains!

 

The more I'm looking at the plan (actually been staring at it all day!) the more I'm thinking of just forgetting about having continuous loops. I think I might try and draw up a new plan. I'll get rid of the junction at the station, I'll shorten long rock and then have the two main lines go to a dead end fiddle yard on the left hand side of the plan. Does that sound better?

 

I'll try and post something later or tomorrow.

Just to confirm my understanding of OP plan, garage is 15'8 x 9' interior?

 

Will try to sketch something later on and post.

Yeah that's the rough dimensions.

[Clagsniffer]

Ok so I've revamped the track plan and come up with this.

As you can see I've scrapped the idea of continuous loops, I've added a substantial fiddle yard and I've also stream lined the depot area.

 

Any thoughts on the new plan?

[Flying Pig]

Below is a sketch of Penzance and approaches copied from the 1989 Quail. I'm not sure how all the sidings were worked, but the section sticking out at 45° is labelled "Motorail" in the book.

 

 

And here's the depot:

 

 

 

[DCB]

Penzance is a very compact terminus constrained by the site and was expanded from 3 to 4 platforms within the same trainshed in the 1930s, however most of the platform length is outside the train shed anyway.  The 45 degree jutty out bit was the stub of what used to be the goods yard coverted to Motorail in the 70s(?)

Penzance was as far from Paddington s you could get GWR wise, the Cornish Riviera ran there, but generally Devon and Cornwall based locos worked the trains. Branch  Locals ran to St Ives I believe and unusually Fish was brought by road  from Newlyn a mile or so further west and loaded in the station sidings.  In many ways one of the best GWR Terminuses to model accurately, though 2251 class and 14XX would have been very rare here.     In Hydraulic Days I saw a D600 Warship there.

The problem is that GWR Terminus stations were very few and far between, I can list Windsor, Penzance and Cheltenham St James as GWR 4 platform Termini, and that is about it.

Most GWR Trains terminated at through stations, Wolverhampton, Plymouth, Worcester, Hereford, Birmingham Snow Hill.

Maybe you should model one of those?

But if you want a 4 platform station and continuous run, how about Cjeltenham St James, which had a junction just at the station throat or Weston Super Mare Locking Road excursion station which also joined the main line at the station throat.  Just warp history and pretend they survived into the diesel era.

Actually the best diesel era Terminus was Inverness, still working with station pilots and rakes of coaches as late as 1987, and that had an avoiding line, just ignore platforms 5-7 and you have a decent subject to model.

[Karhedron]

The problem is that GWR Terminus stations were very few and far between, I can list Windsor, Penzance and Cheltenham St James as GWR 4 platform Termini, and that is about it.

 

Moor Street had 4 terminating platforms too although admittedly there were also the through lines to Snow Hill. I believe Weymouth also had 4 platforms prior to the construction of the Excurions platform (willing to be corrected here).

[St Enodoc]

Ok so I've revamped the track plan and come up with this.image.jpg

As you can see I've scrapped the idea of continuous loops, I've added a substantial fiddle yard and I've also stream lined the depot area.

 

Any thoughts on the new plan?

Only you can decide on the pros and cons of losing the continuous main lines. You might think about extending the innermost fiddle track to join up with the nearest siding at Penzance. That would simulate the old siding down to Albert Quay (although that had long gone by your time period) and allow you at least to run trains round and round for testing or running in.

 

Anyway, don't lose heart - it's always better to chop and change on a piece of paper (or computer screen) rather than on the layout itself.

[DCB]

Moor Street had three terminal platforms for suburban trains and two through platforms.  It had engine release traversers, the only ones I know of in the country, a big goods warehouse and a goods yard on two levels with electric wagon hoists between levels.  It is actually a very good basis for a model, especially if you want a continuous run as well as a terminus.

 

Moor Street was built because the GWR had no alternative route to avoid  Snow Hill tunnel which was something of a bottleneck.  The GWR did everything possible to avoid congestion in the North westerly direction up the gradient through Snow Hill tunnel including sending through down goods round the much longer route via Honeybourne and Worcester to the west of Snow Hill, and generally terminating London to  "Birmingham" trains at Wolverhampton,   Building Moor street avoided the need for local goods and passengers to pass through Snow Hill Tunnel only a limited number of local transfer freights went through the tunnel, so there was an imbalance towards fast fitted freights over slow freights, which is exactly what I like to run.

 

The only problem is Moor Street looked depressingly toylike with neat straight canopies and platforms.

 

Weymouth was very quirky, I think it had 5 platforms and served the LSWR lines to Bournemouth etc as wellas the GWR Westbury and  Paddington . The 5 platforms were awkward short ones before the long excursion platforms were built, and the main expresses (Boat Trains) bypassed the station to use the Quay station and the Tramway while the Portland locals had to back out I believe as the junction faced the "wrong" way at the station throat, very weird.    After 1957 the Boat trains were SR stock and locos from Waterloo instead of Paddington, and the final Loco allocation was SR including all the surviving Merchant Navies at one time.  Equally weird a severe gradient to Bincombe Tunnel from not far off the platform end and double track engine lines to the loco shed after 1957 ish.

 

S

[Joseph_Pestell]

Moor Street had three terminal platforms for suburban trains and two through platforms.  It had engine release traversers, the only ones I know of in the country, a big goods warehouse and a goods yard on two levels with electric wagon hoists between levels.  It is actually a very good basis for a model, especially if you want a continuous run as well as a terminus.

 

Moor Street was built because the GWR had no alternative route to avoid  Snow Hill tunnel which was something of a bottleneck.  The GWR did everything possible to avoid congestion in the North westerly direction up the gradient through Snow Hill tunnel including sending through down goods round the much longer route via Honeybourne and Worcester to the west of Snow Hill, and generally terminating London to  "Birmingham" trains at Wolverhampton,   Building Moor street avoided the need for local goods and passengers to pass through Snow Hill Tunnel only a limited number of local transfer freights went through the tunnel, so there was an imbalance towards fast fitted freights over slow freights, which is exactly what I like to run.

 

The only problem is Moor Street looked depressingly toylike with neat straight canopies and platforms.

 

Weymouth was very quirky, I think it had 5 platforms and served the LSWR lines to Bournemouth etc as wellas the GWR Westbury and  Paddington . The 5 platforms were awkward short ones before the long excursion platforms were built, and the main expresses (Boat Trains) bypassed the station to use the Quay station and the Tramway while the Portland locals had to back out I believe as the junction faced the "wrong" way at the station throat, very weird.    After 1957 the Boat trains were SR stock and locos from Waterloo instead of Paddington, and the final Loco allocation was SR including all the surviving Merchant Navies at one time.  Equally weird a severe gradient to Bincombe Tunnel from not far off the platform end and double track engine lines to the loco shed after 1957 ish.

 

S

 

We are going a bit OT here. But Portland trains had their own little station adjacent to the terminus, Melcombe Regis. Weymouth station is in Melcombe Regis on historic boundaries. Weymouth itself is on the other side of the river.

 

Back to Penzance, clearly more potential to model it properly if one leaves out the continuous run. Or perhaps, if the OP wants to see trains run by it would be simpler just to have a second completely independent layout at the lower level.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Another potential factor in the layout design is location of the access door.

[Clagsniffer]

Would the original track plan here be possible using dcc concepts power base? I'm clutching at straws a bit here but from the videos I've seen it looks quite impressive?

 

If I start the descent level with diesel depot and re emerge at the station throat as per the plan?

 

I know that still leaves the problem of a fiddle yard, but I'm sure I could figure something out!

Does anybody have any thoughts about the power base idea?

[DCB]

I don't see any reason why the layout can not be built as drawn, if you minimise the clearance under the platform roads,  St Enodoc suggests 60mm baseboard framing  but I woud go for 11mm, a sheet of 3mm ply with the 8mm deep track on where the upper level passes over the lower.  The platform can conceal substantial beams above baseboard top level to give strength, and the rest of the upper level baseboard can be supported from below. given this the continuous run only needs to drop about 3" which is about 60mm clearance plus 3mm ply plus 8mm track in around 8 feet,that is about 1 in 30.  The lower baseboard  top needs to be another 8mm lower, but with judicious weighting my old Triang Hornby Halls, Hornby 4-6-0 Counties etc manage 7 Mk 1s up a 1 in 30, even of I had to take the weight out of Hawksworth Coaches and weight and pickups off various tenders to achieve this.  If you are using diesels I get 7 mk 2s up a 1 in 14 with Lima 37s in the garden. 

The fiddle yard track could descend under the station until there is clearance then spread into a fan of sidings. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Penzance is a very compact terminus constrained by the site and was expanded from 3 to 4 platforms within the same trainshed in the 1930s, however most of the platform length is outside the train shed anyway.  The 45 degree jutty out bit was the stub of what used to be the goods yard coverted to Motorail in the 70s(?)

Penzance was as far from Paddington s you could get GWR wise, the Cornish Riviera ran there, but generally Devon and Cornwall based locos worked the trains. Branch  Locals ran to St Ives I believe and unusually Fish was brought by road  from Newlyn a mile or so further west and loaded in the station sidings.  In many ways one of the best GWR Terminuses to model accurately, though 2251 class and 14XX would have been very rare here.     In Hydraulic Days I saw a D600 Warship there.

The problem is that GWR Terminus stations were very few and far between, I can list Windsor, Penzance and Cheltenham St James as GWR 4 platform Termini, and that is about it.

Most GWR Trains terminated at through stations, Wolverhampton, Plymouth, Worcester, Hereford, Birmingham Snow Hill.

Maybe you should model one of those?

But if you want a 4 platform station and continuous run, how about Cjeltenham St James, which had a junction just at the station throat or Weston Super Mare Locking Road excursion station which also joined the main line at the station throat.  Just warp history and pretend they survived into the diesel era.

Actually the best diesel era Terminus was Inverness, still working with station pilots and rakes of coaches as late as 1987, and that had an avoiding line, just ignore platforms 5-7 and you have a decent subject to model.

 

GW trains did use a terminus station in Plymouth until WW2. North Rd was nothing like so important with SR trains also using it just as a brief stop on the way to its own terminus at Friary.

 

The GW terminus at Millbay (buildings lasted until the 80s and construction of a leisure centre) was very compact and would make a lovely model.

[DCB]

Millbay had a large goods station adjacent and I think the through lines to the docks used by ocean mails trains passed by the terminus, however it did have the Plymouth area carriage sidings I believe and served local trains from Liskeard to the west and Exeter, which from the 1931 timetable included the Exeter through coach off the Cornish Riviera, a Centenary brake comp after 1935 I would guess and a 5 coach London arrival with a Glasgow through carriage after midnight. I suppose the Plymouth area auto trains, after 1935 often a 64XX sandwiched between two pairs of Autocoaches .  I suspect the Tavistock branch services also ran to Millbay as North Road was very cramped until the late 1930s rebuilding.  I am guessing Exeter locals would be 51XX Prairie tanks or maybe Moguls, Tavistock locals 45XX and Liskeard  64XX with auto coaches so quite a variety.   More so than Penance and with a bit of modellers license, Ocean mails leaving from station and passenger boat trains it could be fun as an accurate model.

[Clagsniffer]

Hi guys, it's been a long while since originally posted this topic. I just thought I'd share a picture of where I'm at to date. Please forgive the crude mock up of the overall roof but you get the idea!

 

 

Cheers.

[lancer1027]

Hi, this is a very interesting topic and i will be watching further developments with interest.

 

I am also very interested in Penzance and plan to have a 36'x10' shed down the bottom of the garden which will house my version of Penzance in O gauge. I am currently working on the garden railway side of things at present to give me something to run trains. Both my garden railway ( outdoor model railway section ) and workbench which shows my stock ( 7mm+ modelling) threads can be seen.

 

Sorry for the waffling. I look forward to your next progress report.

 

Rob

[Clagsniffer]

Hi Rob thanks for the reply, I can't believe it's taken nearly a year from my original post to get to where I am now! Hopefully things will progress a little quicker now I've sorted the plan out.

 

I'm sorry but I don't think you can call a 36' x 10' a shed though, that's a holiday home haha. Seriously though a model of penzance in O would be an awesome sight! Have you finalised a track plan yet? If not I would suggest you get hold of a copy of the great western railway journal No. 62, spring 2007, it has track plans of the station, ponsandane goods yard and long rock depot.

 

Thanks.