Dean Goods Locos

[drduncan]

In my blog about producing a 4mm scale model of a Dean Goods using the Mainline/Honrby model as a basis (see: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1569/entry-15188-the-locomotive-shop-dean-goods-2322-part-1/ ) I noted that I was intending to use an early belpaired boiler loco, 2322, in c 1903 condition as my exmplar.

 

However, on examining the photo of 2322, it seems that the extended smokebox has an interesting cut away arrangement. Here are three different locos that appear to have the same front end arranagements (including 2322)

 

 

 

 

As opposed to the front end usually seen in photos of Dean Goods locos with extended smokeboxes in the pre 1914 era

 

:

 

Can anyone thow any light on this? Or provide clearer pictures or a drawing?

 

Regards

 

drduncan

[tomparryharry]

There are front cylinder lubricators down in the gap between the front beam, & the cylinder block.

 

I've seen photos of early panniers with the flap raised, presumably to keep the lubricators cool.

 

Ian

[drduncan]

Ian,

 

Many thakns for the reply, but on the Dean Goods the flap is in one piece, but the images above not only don't seem to have a flap in the lighted postion, but have an additional block in the centre that is missing in pictures of Dean Goods running around with the cylinder cover raised - hence my confusion.

Duncan

[buffalo]

Running with the cover plate raised was fairly common practice across a range of classes, even into BR days. I've heard the 'cooling' explanation before but very much doubt it. After all, how much cooling would you get at the speed these usually travelled, and why would you want it?

 

In this case, it appears that a small number of Dean Goods were fitted with either a removeable or fixed bracket to keep the flap raised sometime around the turn of the century. I'm not sure why you suggest 'pre-1914 era' as none of those photos are liable to be later than 1908ish and probably no later than 1905 as all have socket lamp irons. Do you know of any genuinely later examples? I can't remember seeing more than a handful with this 'bracket'.

 

Your third photo is of 2397 and a copy of this appears in Clements' William Dean: the greatest of them all. A great photo, but ignore the caption, it's utter nonsense, the photo is certainly pre-1902.

 

Nick

[drduncan]

Nick,

Yes I completely agree with your comnent about the caption in the Clements' book - there are other questable statements in it too.

I agree that that photos are likely to be pre 1908 but the dating of the photos wasn't definitive so i plumped for the pre14 tag to be safe.

 

But can you shed any light ( or dimensions) on this front end arrangement?

D

[buffalo]

...But can you shed any light ( or dimensions) on this front end arrangement?

 

Not really, other than a rough guess that the bracket looks to be about five inches wide and high enough to hold the flap in a horizontal position, say 10 or 11 inches.

 

Nick

[drduncan]

Nick,

I'm not sure there is a cover to be held up in a horizontal position. In the third photo (2397) there doesnt seem to be either a cylinder cover or any bracket to hold one open. Instead there is the sloped front casting that extends out from beteeen the cylinders are. I'm assuming the cutouts on either side of the sloped fronted casting will extend back as far as the cylinders. Does this sound reasonable?

 

I don't think this arrangement lasted long and I'm wondering if it only applies to the handful of 2301s tbat were fitted with b4 boilers between 1901 and 1903. Certainly the all later photos of b4 fitted 2301s have the standard hinged cylinder cover seen in tbe final picture of the post.

D

[buffalo]

Hi Duncan,

 

You're right, there is no flap in these photos. My mistake was to interpret the dark horizontal shadow just below the smokebox door as the flap viewed edge on. In fact, it is the shadow at the top of the cut-away section below the door that brings the base of the extended smokebox back to the front of the cylinders. This cut-away section can be seen in some side views, though is often obscured by the sandboxes. What I thought was a supporting bracket now appears to be a narrow piece in roughly the same position as the flap on other engines, i.e. it goes from the extended smokebox front just below the door down to the running plate at a similar angle to the flap.

 

Certainly short-lived but I don't see how later fitting of an B4 comes into it. The photos appear to be well before fitting of Belpaires, 2397 has an S2 and your second photo also looks like an S2 (unless its a B2).

 

Nick

[drduncan]

Hi Nick,

 

Having had a look at the fullpictures you are quite right, some are S2 boilers too.

 

D

[tomparryharry]

Running with the cover plate raised was fairly common practice across a range of classes, even into BR days. I've heard the 'cooling' explanation before but very much doubt it. After all, how much cooling would you get at the speed these usually travelled, and why would you want it?

 

In this case, it appears that a small number of Dean Goods were fitted with either a removeable or fixed bracket to keep the flap raised sometime around the turn of the century. I'm not sure why you suggest 'pre-1914 era' as none of those photos are liable to be later than 1908ish and probably no later than 1905 as all have socket lamp irons. Do you know of any genuinely later examples? I can't remember seeing more than a handful with this 'bracket'.

 

Your third photo is of 2397 and a copy of this appears in Clements' William Dean: the greatest of them all. A great photo, but ignore the caption, it's utter nonsense, the photo is certainly pre-1902.

 

Nick

 

Hi Nick,

 

It's not so much wind speed, but more air circulation. The need to cool (or warm) a lubricator stems from the viscosity of the oil. Do you need to thin it? get it warmed up. Slow down the flow? keep it cooler.

 

The valve chests are normally between the cylinders. They would take lubrication first. 

 

Lubrication was a hot topic at MIC (Mutual Improvement Classes).

 

Ian