RED Express Locomotive Headcode Lamps ?!

[70021 Morning Star]

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I'VE ALWAYS THOUGHT I UNDERSTOOD EXPRESS STEAM LOCOMOTIVE HEADCODE LIGHTS
 
Well, I always thought I understood that a passenger express locomotive displayed two white lights, either side of the buffer board... But, recently, I've come across period photographs that clearly show one white and one red light, or two red lights, on the front of passenger express services.

 

==> [CORRECTION: I should have said Lamps, not Lights. Although logic would seem to suggest that a red painted lamp would shine a red light, and a white painted lamp would shine a white light.]
 
I'm talking about 1930s, 1950s and 1960s passenger expresses locomotives. (Note the gap in my dates.)
 
Not only is the 1930s displayed light red, the oil lamp of 1961 (below) is also painted red.
 
An example is the last steam hauled South Wales Pullman, on 8 September 1961, when 4090 Dorchester Castle displayed one red (offside) and one white (nearside) oil lamp. (Source, "The Red Dragon ...and other old friends", 2006, ISBN 978-0-9553941-0-2, LDR Publications.)
 
Anyone with any information, please join in this thread.
 
I am particularly interested to know what Headcode lights, 7016 Chester Castle would have displayed when hauling the South Wales Pullman in August of 1958. White : White, I'd have thought. But am now wondering if this should be Red : White.
 
Thank you for any contributions,
Rick

[The Stationmaster]

I'd be very surprised if a train would get very far back in those days with a red headlight (the GWR did of course use red painted lamps until post-war years, but they showed a white light).

[70021 Morning Star]

Apparently not, Stationmaster.
 
In the 1930s, I have definitive statements that two red lights denoted a passenger express. (That was a surprise.)
 
Then there's page 210 of "The Red Dragon ...and other old friends" book, clearly showing one red and one white lamp*. Yes, I agree it's odd - and could have something to do with this being the last ever steam-hauled South Wales Pullman - which is why I've started an enquiry thread on RMWEB.
 
Are you thinking that Dorchester Castle might have had two white oil lamps, the casing of one being painted red, while the other had a white case? I'd find that unlikely, but remains a possibility. You did say, "the GWR did of course use red painted lamps until post-war years", and 1961 was well past this date.

 

An anomaly in the lamps used in the 8 September 1961 SWP ?
 
Thanks,
Rick

 

*Note: I say 'lamp', not 'light'. The lamp is red, but the light may be red or white. But odd they'd have a red lamp that displays a white light; kind of an accident waiting to happen...

[ozzyo]

It would help us all if you could put up a colour scan of the photo, so that we could help you with your question. Up until about the 1950s you could see red painted tail lights? (am I correct on this) that showed a red light. 

The only locos that I can think of that would show a red and white light in the position that you have described would be a station shunter,

When you look at these loco lights "markers" what colour are they, then you say what colour are the lights? Can you see the colour of the lights? I can't!

 

In all of the photos that I've had a look at post 48 I've found maybe three that could show "red" lights on the front of a loco, but all of these have been in B&W. So it could just have been a lot of muck on them.

 

If your looking at the light lens and it looks a dark colour and your thinking it's red, you will be wrong, As the lens was used to magnify the light but not to intensify the light. The light inside an oil lamp is a bit like a tea candle and that's about the light it puts out. So the lens in front of it can look any colour, but then you have to think of the colour of the flame, it's yellow that's why the "green" aspect of the signal is a sort of blue colour.

 

It's late at night and we won,

 

OzzyO.   

 

 

[Poor Old Bruce]

Locos used engaged in shunting on running lines e.g. station pilots should display one red and one white light at each end. Trains running wrong line for whatever reason were required to display a red light at the front but not sure if one or two for Class A trains or if the second white light should be removed.

[buffalo]

...In the 1930s, I have definitive statements that two red lights denoted a passenger express. (That was a surprise.)...

More than a suprise, it is quite wrong. The GWR express passenger headcode was two white lights over the buffers from 1903 onwards. Lamp bodies were black from 1903 to some time in WW1 when they changed to red. White bodied lamps were introduced from 1936, although there were still some red bodied lamps in use after WW2. A mix of red and white bodies was sometimes seen in this period.

 

It is perhaps worth adding that in the days of steam, it was very difficult to see any light during daylight except when looking straight on. Trying to judge a light colour from a colour photo is even more difficult as photos were usually only taken in very good lighting. Colour film was expensive and very slow.

 

Locos used engaged in shunting on running lines e.g. station pilots should display one red and one white light at each end. Trains running wrong line for whatever reason were required to display a red light at the front but not sure if one or two for Class A trains or if the second white light should be removed.

 

Where and when? GWR pilots and shunters carried only a single red light front and rear on the upper lamp irons from at least 1933, maybe much earlier, until at least 1948.With respect to single line working, rule 204 in the 1933 Rule Book includes

 

...When passing through a tunnel, or after sunset or during fog or falling snow, trains must carry a red head light...

It's not clear to me whether this is in addition to or instead of all, or part, of it's normal head code, and it suggests that it is not necessary in daylight with good visibility.

 

Nick

 

edit to clarify what rule 204 was about.

[70021 Morning Star]

Yes, the shunting yard code was one red and one white, but...
 

I'm talking about one red-bodied lamp and one white bodied lamp, on the buffer beam of Dorchester Castle, on 8th September, 1961, when she hauled the last ever steam-worked South Wales Pullman. (Picture ref given in post #3.) This is (repeat) 1961, and is a highly prestigious, highly-polished, well turned out locomotive; so I think we can dismiss the 'red' lamp being a very grimy white-bodied lamp.
 
Now it could be that the lamp body is red, but that the lens is clear; but having a mix of white and red lenses on red-bodied lamps, along with clear lenses in white-bodied lamps would be extraordinary, to say the least. That'd seem incredibly dangerous, and an accident waiting to happen.
 
In the 1961 photograph of Dorchester Castle, neither lamp is lit, but the shot of the South Wales Pullman is taken as the train crossed Neath Road, so is on the main line, not sitting in a shunting yard.
 
What's also odd, is another picture (this time on a normally extremely reliable website), where they're claiming that .., well, note the date is 1912, and read for yourself:
 
 
 
My scanner isn't working with Windows 8, so can't upload the relevant part of the picture from page 210 of "The Red Dragon ...and other old friends". Maybe someone else can do this?

Cheers,
Rick

[buffalo]

Yes, the shunting yard code was one red and one white, but...

Not on the GWR, see my post above, although Rule 123 in the 1933 book does say "...or such other light as may be prescribed.

 

...I'm talking about one red-bodied lamp and one white bodied lamp, on the buffer beam of Dorchester Castle, on 8th September, 1961, when she hauled the last ever steam-worked South Wales Pullman. (Picture ref given in post #3.) This is (repeat) 1961, and is a highly prestigious, highly-polished, well turned out locomotive; so I think we can dismiss the 'red' lamp being a very grimy white-bodied lamp...

Is this a colour photo? If not, you can't rule out it being a grimy white lamp. Most lamps were very grimy at that date.  If it is red then the only explanation I can suggest is that the driver was a traditionalist who kept a secret stash of red-bodied lamps, though why he didn't have a pair, I don't know

 

...Now it could be that the lamp body is red, but that the lens is clear; but having a mix of white and red lenses on red-bodied lamps, along with clear lenses in white-bodied lamps would be extraordinary, to say the least. That'd seem incredibly dangerous, and an accident waiting to happen...

I can see no reason why both lenses should not be clear and would have thought that if they were otherwise the train would soon be stopped to correct the error.

 

...In the 1961 photograph of Dorchester Castle, neither lamp is lit...

So you can't tell the colour of the lens.

 

What's also odd, is another picture (this time on a normally extremely reliable website), where they're claiming that .., well, note the date is 1912, and read for yourself:...

 

Compare the brightly lit red buffer shanks with the lamp bodies, and then compare the lamps with the black areas of the running plate and inside valve cover. Remeber that if the photo was taken on orthochromatic film, as most still were at that time, it is very difficult to distinguish red from black but, on balance I think they are more likely to be black.  There appears to be some uncertainty about the date when red-bodied lamps were introduced. Certainly, they were red for steam rail motors and auto trains from 1904, but opinions vary about when they were introduced as normal loco headlights. I have seen 1904, 1911 and 1915 stated by different people...

Nick

[70021 Morning Star]

With reference to Dorchester Castle. She's an ex-Landor locomotive, still presented to 'Landor standards', all shined up, with meticulous attention to the detail of polished buffers etc. So I think we can rule out her driver permitting her to head the last ever steam-hauled South Wales Pullman with a white lamp that's so grimy it appears to be a 'red' lamp in the B&W photograph. Also, the colour of the 'red' lamp appears uniformly dark, not just mucky.

 

I think we must assume the lamp bodies are, one white and one red. My point being this suggests the lights shining from these lamps would, surely, correspond to the colour their bodies are painted. Having red-bodied lamps that shine a white light would be absurdly dangerous. I don't know, but surely they'd be painted red or white precisely to ensure mistakes weren't made, and accidents didn't happen?

 

Did they do something (seemingly) so incredibly stupid as painting lamp bodies in white or red without regard to the fact that they were being used to emit a white or red signal light? It seems highly improbable; but, I guess I'll hear, "this is the Western Region" !

 

Rick

[buffalo]

With reference to Dorchester Castle. She's an ex-Landor locomotive, still presented to 'Landor standards', all shined up, with meticulous attention to the detail of polished buffers etc. So I think we can rule out her driver permitting her to head the last ever steam-hauled South Wales Pullman with a white lamp that's so grimy it appears to be a 'red' lamp in the B&W photograph. Also, the colour of the 'red' lamp appears uniformly dark, not just mucky...

Well, if you can tell the difference between red and anything else of similar tonal value in a black and white photo, you're the answer to many railway historian's prayers. What possible reason do you have to say the lamp is red rather than grey/black?

 

I think we must assume the lamp bodies are, one white and one red. My point being this suggests the lights shining from these lamps would, surely, correspond to the colour their bodies are painted. Having red-bodied lamps that shine a white light would be absurdly dangerous. I don't know, but surely they'd be painted red or white precisely to ensure mistakes weren't made, and accidents didn't happen?

Sorry, you've not given any reason to assume it's red. Nor is there any reason to assume the lens will be the same colour as the body. Pre-1936 GWR lamps had clear lenses. The LMS had black lamp bodies but their lenses were clear. Far safer to assume that if they are headlamps, the lens is clear.

 

Nick

[Poor Old Bruce]

Locos engaged in shunting on running lines e.g. station pilots should display one red and one white light at each end. Trains running wrong line for whatever reason were required to display a red light at the front but not sure if one or two for Class A trains or if the second white light should be removed.

 

Where and when? GWR pilots and shunters carried only a single red light front and rear on the upper lamp irons from at least 1933, maybe much earlier, until at least 1948. Rule 204 in the 1933 Rule Book includes

Quote

..When passing through a tunnel, or after sunset or during fog or falling snow, trains must carry a red head light...

 

It's not clear to me whether this is in addition to or instead of all, or part, of it's normal head code, and it suggests that it is not necessary in daylight with good visibility.

 

Er - The BR Rule Book for 1950. Rule 123:

 

"Engines employed exclusively in shunting at stations and yards must, after sunset or during fog or falling snow, carry one red and one white light, both at the front and rear, one over each buffer."

 

"after sunset or during fog or falling snow" was subsequently amended to "by day and night".

 

 

Everyone should bear in mind that whoever wrote the caption for the photograph may not have been infallible. I have seen captions stating that such-and-such a locomotive was from such-and-such a shed when it clearly displayed a different shed's plate. Also supposedly experienced writers are confused by small tank engines apparently carrying Express Passenger Train headlamp configurations.

[buffalo]

Thanks, Bruce, I thought it probably was BR. I've amended my post to clarify that the bit about rule 204 was in relation to single line working.

 

Nick

[DaveF]

With reference to Dorchester Castle. She's an ex-Landor locomotive, still presented to 'Landor standards', all shined up, with meticulous attention to the detail of polished buffers etc. So I think we can rule out her driver permitting her to head the last ever steam-hauled South Wales Pullman with a white lamp that's so grimy it appears to be a 'red' lamp in the B&W photograph. Also, the colour of the 'red' lamp appears uniformly dark, not just mucky.

 

I think we must assume the lamp bodies are, one white and one red. My point being this suggests the lights shining from these lamps would, surely, correspond to the colour their bodies are painted. Having red-bodied lamps that shine a white light would be absurdly dangerous. I don't know, but surely they'd be painted red or white precisely to ensure mistakes weren't made, and accidents didn't happen?

 

Did they do something (seemingly) so incredibly stupid as painting lamp bodies in white or red without regard to the fact that they were being used to emit a white or red signal light? It seems highly improbable; but, I guess I'll hear, "this is the Western Region" !

 

Rick

 

As already mentioned for many years the GWR did paint loco headlamp bodies red.

 

However they could easily be distinguished from tail lamps as head lamps had a clear lens, tail lamps had a red lens, as all lamp oil burns with a yellow flame, so the lens colour gives the colour you see at night.

 

David

[70021 Morning Star]

David,

Do you know between what dates GWR painted locomotive headlamp bodies red? The Dorchester Castle photograph is 1961, in the British Railways Western Region era. Would there have been red painted headlamps at this time?

 

Also, what about late 1958? Again BR Western Region. Would they have had a mixture of red-bodied and white-bodied headlamps in 1958 ?

 

I'm not saying you're wrong: I am saying it's illogical to paint some locomotive headlamps red and others white. Not to mention that the Western Region were very image conscious, and mixed lamp-body colours would look a mess. All painted red, might look quite stylish. All painted white, ok, and follows logically from the white discs that came before. But mixed? Hmmm.

 

As for the picture caption. I agree it 'could' be incorrect, but it's from a highly-respected source, and the author is very definite in his statement.

 

Thanks for contributing,

Rick 

[BlackRat]

I think the GWR red painted lamps finished in 1936?

 

I've NEVER seen a pic of ANY BR steam loco with a red painted front or rear for that matter, lamp.

[70021 Morning Star]

As I say, my scanner's not working, so this is an absolutely horrible phone-camera like close up that isn't nearly as clear as the book.
 
4090 Dorchester Castle with the South Wales Pullman on 8th September, 1961



Hopefully, someone with a scanner can upload a better image. Meanwhile, note the Landor shed polished buffers and drawbar. Also, compare the rendering of the red buffer bar colour with that offside 'red' lamp.

IMPORTANT ==> Please see this RMWEB thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=47150 !!


Rick

[11B]

 

Did they do something (seemingly) so incredibly stupid as painting lamp bodies in white or red without regard to the fact that they were being used to emit a white or red signal light? It seems highly improbable; but, I guess I'll hear, "this is the Western Region" !

 

Rick

 

I was under the impression that it is the colour of the light lens that matters i.e. a loco headlamp has a clear lens, but, also has an additional red lens stored with in lamp body that can inserted so a red light is displayed for example the tail lamp on a light engine. A true tail lamp has a permanent red lens. As for the colour of the lamp body,  the GWR had red and white, whilst up North in the Midland regions we had black and white, but no black light was ever emitted...

 

Kind regards

 

Ian

[The Stationmaster]

That picture isn't very clear of course but looking at it carefully there is nothing in the shape of the grubby lamp to suggest that the slide is in - hence it's white. 

[KalKat]

Looks like two different types of lamp body to me. One handle is a loop, the other is rounded plus the vents seem different.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I have just looked through some of my surviving pictures from 1960/62, all b/w, but the variation in shade of lamp case was huge. There were several LMS pattern with apparently black cases and most had apparently different shaded of grey although sometimes it may have been due to one being in sunlight and one in shade. The WR ones all appeared to be white but in varying states of cleanliness, even on Class 1 trains. 

 

If you have a look on Ernie Brack's Flickr site you will find three or four albums af GWR pictures, several of which also show vastly different conditions of headlamps.

[70021 Morning Star]

Both lamps are physically identical. It's that horrible image quality is throwing you. They're both BR Western Region type.

 

I'll see if my digital camera can get us a better image. Wait out...

 

Rick

[70021 Morning Star]

Click on this image to enlarge

 

[asmay2002]

.

I'VE ALWAYS THOUGHT I UNDERSTOOD EXPRESS STEAM LOCOMOTIVE HEADCODE LIGHTS

 

Well, I always thought I understood that a passenger express locomotive displayed two white lights, either side of the buffer board...

 

The regulations refer to the colour of the LIGHT produced not the colour of the LAMP.

[The Stationmaster]

The regulations refer to the colour of the LIGHT produced not the colour of the LAMP.

But interestingly they only refer to red lights, and in 1960 to white lights in sidelight and white light where electric lights were provided on locos.  Obviously except where something was required to be a red light it would be a white light but that is not stipulated in either the Rule Book, General Appendix or WR Regional Appendix as in force in 1960 (unless someone has found something I haven't?). 

[70021 Morning Star]

These are relatively modern photographs. I'm looking for one with a red-bodied lamp, so I can convert it to B&W. That'll give an idea of what we know is 'red' looks in B&W. It won't definitively answer the question, but I think it'll be interesting. Watch this posting for further updates.

 

Meanwhile, thanks to everyone who has contributed.

 

Rick