Jim Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Hi, I've generally modelled fitted goods trains but I've been messing about with loose coupled operations...I've realised I've really no idea how the carried out operations with vans...a few head scratching moments whilst shunting... Anyway, amongst other questions I have is wondering what they did when using brake vans on say a stone train which was shoved back in the siding but wasn't going to be loaded/unloaded that day... Would they shunt the van off and take it with the engine or just leave the van with its train in the siding. Many thanks, Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginelane Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Hi, I've generally modelled fitted goods trains but I've been messing about with loose coupled operations...I've realised I've really no idea how the carried out operations with vans...a few head scratching moments whilst shunting... Anyway, amongst other questions I have is wondering what they did when using brake vans on say a stone train which was shoved back in the siding but wasn't going to be loaded/unloaded that day... Would they shunt the van off and take it with the engine or just leave the van with its train in the siding. Many thanks, Jim Depending on the period brake vans were often in short supply so could be needed for other duties and for quite a while guards were in different unions so could be problems with them travelling on footplate / cab Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted May 25, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 25, 2015 Hi, I've generally modelled fitted goods trains but I've been messing about with loose coupled operations...I've realised I've really no idea how the carried out operations with vans...a few head scratching moments whilst shunting... Anyway, amongst other questions I have is wondering what they did when using brake vans on say a stone train which was shoved back in the siding but wasn't going to be loaded/unloaded that day... Would they shunt the van off and take it with the engine or just leave the van with its train in the siding. Many thanks, Jim As you suggest stop the train, detach the brake, reverse the wagons into the siding, uncouple, go back and attach to the brake van then depart. However in most situations if the yard was receiving / dispatching block trains of stuff there would normally be a rake of loaded / empty wagons to be removed at the same time as the incoming train arrived. In such cases then having deposited the newly arrived wagons into the sidings, the loco reverses onto the outbound wagons, draws out them out, then sets them back onto the brake van. Once coupled off it goes... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Until the early 1970s guards were not allowed to travel on locos, certainly not on steam locos! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 25, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 25, 2015 Hi, I've generally modelled fitted goods trains but I've been messing about with loose coupled operations...I've realised I've really no idea how the carried out operations with vans...a few head scratching moments whilst shunting... Anyway, amongst other questions I have is wondering what they did when using brake vans on say a stone train which was shoved back in the siding but wasn't going to be loaded/unloaded that day... Would they shunt the van off and take it with the engine or just leave the van with its train in the siding. Many thanks, Jim The West of England stone train working are probably a poor example as many worked on an out & back basis while the rest were effectively a changeover of fulls & empties and the brakevan was shunted from the inward loaded train to the outward empty train - it all got a lot simpler once the trains ran as fully fitted!. At many terminals the simplest way of doing the job was to run-round first and then shunt with the van next to the engine - assuming it would be working back with it with the outward/return train although in many cases it would simply be stood aside for the train to be formed/shunted onto it. The practice in marshalling yards was slightly different as there were two distinct patterns of working. The first was more or less the same as happened at a terminal - i.e. if the incoming engine & crew were taking a return working their Guard, and his van, would usually stay with them (especially on a cold day) but sometimes this might not be possible because of the way the yard work so the Guard would have to take to a fresh van (hopefully already prepared for him). If there was no traffic for the return working, or if it was booked EBV (Engine & brakevan) the normal procedure in most places was for the inward van to go back with the engineHome trains returning to a yard would be treated differently as the van would be shunted off to a road kept for brakevans to stand ready for the next job. Through trains calling to work of course normally kept the same van. One feature that is worth understanding is that by the late 1960s and very much so in the 1970s traincrews were increasingly being 'synchronised' - which meant the Driver/Secondman and the Guard all worked to a common diagram which no doubt helped to make sure that engine & van stayed together on all parts of a turn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 I always tried to keep the same van on the return journey as the outward one: I'd cleaned it up inside and got the stove nice and hot. Now and then you got a rough one - bad wheel flats, for example - in which case I would then try to loose it and return with something a bit better, but this wasn't usually possible. Going 'engine and brake' was quite common and I remember coming all the way from Chester to Edge Hill like that, with the loco propelling the van the whole way! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 By the late 1970s ( and quite possibly earlier than that) there were quite a few yards that were not staffed for 24hrs a day that you would not want to be leaving a brake van unattended for any length of time. In the Avonmouth area for example brake vans left over the weekend at Severn Beach were often unoffficially occupied and then it was not just the stove that needed cleaning out on a monday morning. The local trip locos would therefore take vans back to somewhere like Hallen Marsh where the signalman could keep an eye on it, cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 In the north east there was still a lot of unfitted coal traffic into the 1980s, The class 37s used there on coal trains seemed to take the brake van with them wherever they went. I have seen several photos of Sunderland depot with lots of class 37s and brake vans present, there are at least five vans in this shot, as well as five 37s https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/13923118886/in/photolist-ndkCaU-dG2QcP-powHFX-powJ3D-ds6dgN-pz1QKL-dYYrBX-eT4HNd-oZpLCf-ooHFQR-pSsaJV-nMdRBg-qDv4uT-raBHXS-gLsAry-rcf1Zr-jGsod5-jX57rk-iz47Hn-e5HYny-dRZtWo-h65WzS-dpeBsR-jqiL5h-81zDVC-oPB1Rm-p1gzdR-ox31LM-eic3Ez-e3EVxS-4ZWrpK-dj49Wf-frAB1b-hNwFWz-fnfNBC-eTQYME-ofKGkg-nK3gYp-6L7rxt-h1K6LZ-6UszwE-e7SqMx-kfrV1h-r81zYx-h1J42A-pxhdmo-4dNjcJ-dJCQ1h-dwuN2x-rNaka9 cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 Thanks for the info guys.... I'm a fully fitted type so have avoided the complication of having a van. The closest I got to working trains with vans was in 1991/2 on the Dungeness flask. Fully fitted with a piped van. It was an excellent experience....the last echoes of proper shunting. All the crew would stand there and look at what moves had to be done to turn the whole train and push the wagons under the crane. Dungeness then offered a very short runround loop with the crane and a cut-off spur. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingsignalman Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 I always tried to keep the same van on the return journey as the outward one: I'd cleaned it up inside and got the stove nice and hot. Now and then you got a rough one - bad wheel flats, for example - in which case I would then try to loose it and return with something a bit better, but this wasn't usually possible. Going 'engine and brake' was quite common and I remember coming all the way from Chester to Edge Hill like that, with the loco propelling the van the whole way! I was on duty one winter's day at Port Sunlight Sidings when the afternoon trip from Birkenhead to Ellesmere Port called (as booked) to pick up the out going wagons. These had marshalled at the rear the brake van that had arrived on the morning trip. The guard, obviously loathe to swap his warm van for a cold one, detached his van on the main line and the rest of the train (about 20 or so vehicles from memory) were shunted into the sidings to pick up the outgoing train (about 7 prestwins and the brake). The train then shunted out and backed onto the brake van waiting on the main line; after coupling up it then departed for Ellesmere Port. It only delayed the following passenger train by about 5 minutes....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 In the north east there was still a lot of unfitted coal traffic into the 1980s, The class 37s used there on coal trains seemed to take the brake van with them wherever they went. I have seen several photos of Sunderland depot with lots of class 37s and brake vans present, there are at least five vans in this shot, as well as five 37s https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/13923118886/in/photolist-ndkCaU-dG2QcP-powHFX-powJ3D-ds6dgN-pz1QKL-dYYrBX-eT4HNd-oZpLCf-ooHFQR-pSsaJV-nMdRBg-qDv4uT-raBHXS-gLsAry-rcf1Zr-jGsod5-jX57rk-iz47Hn-e5HYny-dRZtWo-h65WzS-dpeBsR-jqiL5h-81zDVC-oPB1Rm-p1gzdR-ox31LM-eic3Ez-e3EVxS-4ZWrpK-dj49Wf-frAB1b-hNwFWz-fnfNBC-eTQYME-ofKGkg-nK3gYp-6L7rxt-h1K6LZ-6UszwE-e7SqMx-kfrV1h-r81zYx-h1J42A-pxhdmo-4dNjcJ-dJCQ1h-dwuN2x-rNaka9 cheers The same applied to South Wales; they would be attached to the loco overnight or during weekends, often in such a way that the van would be propelled to its first job (one less bit of running round to do..) Vans wouldn't normally be left in isolated locations, for fear of vandalism. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 The same applied to South Wales; they would be attached to the loco overnight or during weekends, often in such a way that the van would be propelled to its first job (one less bit of running round to do..) Vans wouldn't normally be left in isolated locations, for fear of vandalism. I have just found this photo of Aberbeeg, probably on a sunday which illustrates the point nicely, five 37s, each with a brake van https://uk.search.yahoo.com/search?fr=mcafee&type=B211GB691D20140107&p=flickr+aberbeeg cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 ...Would they shunt the van off and take it with the engine or just leave the van with its train in the siding... I think you will also find some variation to suit operating conditions by location. A regular sight was loaded trains of ironstone wagons at High Dyke sidings by the ECML, waiting collection. Each with its brake van attached so 'ready to go'. The earlier mentions of 'engine and brake'; a very common feature of freight ops well into the diesel era, and one typically under-represented on exhibited layouts. If the modelled location is anywhere near a regional or company boundary it's a great reason for more movements, and involving 'furriners', coming in to pick up, or returning to home territory. It wasn't always possible to organise a balanced turn, and some occasional traffic was very much 'one way' on any particular day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenw Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 In the north east there was still a lot of unfitted coal traffic into the 1980s, The class 37s used there on coal trains seemed to take the brake van with them wherever they went. I have seen several photos of Sunderland depot with lots of class 37s and brake vans present, there are at least five vans in this shot, as well as five 37s Yes they did. I'd several month as a Secondman on these turns in '78 and they were arranged as trip workings between the various collieries and power stations, staiths etc as required on a daily basis by the control. The driver's and guard's were booked to work together for the shift, so the same van would usually be kept for the whole shift and if needed to run light between locations for the next load, or at start / end of turn, the van went too The earlier mentions of 'engine and brake'; a very common feature of freight ops well into the diesel era, and one typically under-represented on exhibited layouts.Often propelling them too. All depending on what was easier for shunting, either where they'd left their last train or were picking up the next one. And if the route concerned was authorised in the Sectional Appendix to do so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted May 31, 2015 Author Share Posted May 31, 2015 What would the guard do for example, if the train arrived at a yard to unload and work the same train back empty but, the yard shunting staff controlled the movements...? Would he settle down and have a kip in the van or help out? .....or, maybe nip down the local with the driver, leaving the second man to shunt the yard? Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 I never came across that situation. We either worked loaded one way and empties the other; or engine and brake in one or other direction. The only times I can envisage that situation would be something like a MGR train, but you certainly didn't work 40 or 50 wagons into a yard and wait around while someone unloaded them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sheep Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 I can only think of a pick up goods being a case of waiting but I'd expect that to be shunted by the collecting loco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted May 31, 2015 Author Share Posted May 31, 2015 Thanks, It's the everyday details like that I've had no experience with and there aren't that many old guards left on the southeastern division that worked unfitted trains.. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted June 4, 2015 Author Share Posted June 4, 2015 Hi, I have another "attention to detail" question... What would the maximum permitted speed of a light engine and brake van? Did it make a difference it the van was fitted/unfitted? Many thanks, Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philwaglab Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 At Aberbeeg in the mid 1960's a few turns were allocated 2 brakevans to save time running round the van on trips from Abertillery to Ebbw vale Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Hi, I have another "attention to detail" question... What would the maximum permitted speed of a light engine and brake van? Did it make a difference it the van was fitted/unfitted? Many thanks, Jim Fairly quick if they were finishing! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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