greenglade

Good day all..It's been a while since my last update, I've been doing a little more work over recent weeks and now seem to have found my way again....anyway here's were I am now, I have stripped down the frames and busy working out where the middle cylinder sits....here's the latest update.... I have a fair number of photo's to show today although in physical terms not a lot of progress has been made but it's an important step that i'm working on and so will try to show how I'm dealing with it. I am of course referring to the positioning of the middle cylinder, I'm not there in machining terms yet but have hopefully covered most of the ground work ready for fitting. There is very little info given in Don's words, in fact unless I've missed it all he says is to drill the holes, either for bolts with nuts on the back to secure or to be tapped 6BA, I'm going for the tapped option,purely as I don't fancy in any future maintenance having to fiddle around with nuts in hidden places. There is very little on the drawings either but the one measurement that is given is to be honest all that's required, it took me a few looks to find it so would have been nice if Don had mentioned it in his words, after all, the positioning of the middle cylinder is fairly critical to a smooth running 2:1 gear. I have included a picture of the drawing as a visual aid to describe what I'm on about. The top left drawing you will note the measurement from the center flange to the most forward of the mounting holes, that being 1 37/64, probably not that best of things to measure from, that being a rough casting but that's what the man says and who am I to argue, I guess the position isn't as critical as i had assumed? The next thing to check is the height of the cylinder, the known hole gives me both axis required as the top edge of the cylinder flange runs parallel with the frames so it's just a matter of pivoting the front upper right-hand corner (looking from the right hand side) to get it's position, basically that one hole and the angle of the top edge is my datum. This picture shows the underside, it's all pretty tight here, the bar that I've pushed through is the main cross shaft for the drain-cock apparatus, there are in fact two crosshafts, but these details are for another day. Note that the hole for the shaft is just below the line of the bottom row of mounting holes for the middle cylinder, as i said, very tight, clearly a section of the cylinder middle flange will need removing when it comes to fitting the pulley for the bowden cable to operate, I'll need to remember that before final fitting of the cylinder. The final thing to check here was the position of the steam chest in relation to the 2:1 gear stay and the outside cylinder steam chests as they all need to be at the same height and parallel, this check is the last to show that the cylinder is at it's correct height and things begin to become clearer in ones mind, or should I say i breathed a little easier. Anyway, the picture shows the cylinder in position with a length of BMS bar pushed through the as of yet un-machined steam chest as a visual check on how things are looking, I also checked with one of the outside cylinder flanges in place and a cylinder casting held by hand to see if anything looked amiss, all looks good, needless to say i couldn't take a picture with all of this for obvious reasons.. One thing that has become very obvious is that I still have a fair bit of material to machine off the top edge of the cylinder flange I tend to leave such things oversize anyway to play safe, especially when there are no overall sizes given for the flanges in the drawings, i hadn't realised though that it would be as much as it actually is, more of that later. first job though is a little more machining of the saddle. I hadn't finished machining the bottom flange edge yet nor had I drilled the holes for the steam inlet/exhaust pipes, I had left all of these until I was sure of the middle cylinder's position. with the cylinder's final position known I could line up the saddle on the frames and plot exactly where I needed to drill the two holes. Before starting these I machined the lower edge of the side flanges and back edge too , IIRC this is about 5/16 from the lip that sits on top of the frames, with this done I could now work out how much needed to come off of the cylinder flanges, hope you guys are keeping up, I'm getting lost just writing it... Picture was taken as I made a start on the exhaust passage from cylinder to blast nozzle. Now the drawing states that this hole is 2 1/2 inches (REF) back from the exhaust hole from the outside cylinders, those who have been following me from the beginning may recall that I have positioned the saddle 1/8" back from that shown on the drawing, this is to keep it closer to the prototype ref photo's that i have and IIRC to match Don's GA. I did go into this in more detail some time ago but basically I think the error, if you can call it that, comes in due to the re-positioning of the front bogie from when it changed from swing-link to side-control types, the bogie yoke is actually moved 1/8" due to this change and perhaps why it looked wrong? Here I have machined down the flange to 5/16 from the lip as mentioned and also finished the two steam holes, the exhaust in the centre and the steam inlet to one side, the drawing states to drill the inlet to 13/16, I haven't done that, I'll wait until I know the exact size of the pipework that connects here, the smaller the hole the easier to seal for a vacuum is my way of thinking. I will most probably make up some stainless baffle plates to go around the pipes ho help with this, Don just states to fill with asbestos or today's safe variant but I like the idea of fitting baffles, final decision on this will be when I know how much room I have to play around with inside the smokebox to be able to get to the fixing screws for the planned baffles, that's another on of those jobs on the back burner... Note that I have also cleaned up the inner edge of the flanges and reduced both the bottom area around the exhaust hole and taken out a section of the rear flange for the exhaust passageway to fit. Not very pretty but it's all going to be buried and out of sight so not a concern, well not to me, I have plenty of bits to do that will be seen.. With a little trial and error I got the saddle machined enough for the cylinder to sit on, now I have more to do here but will leave it until I have finished machining the cylinder flange down to size in a hope of keeping the fit between them as good as possible. The pen marks are from earlier when I was trying to get some idea of how much metal needed removing , it's not as much as it looks here and yes I know that the line isn't running parallel to the blue dots, it was just a rough guide, clearly the cylinder had moved during marking. Here you can see how much does need to be removed form the cylinder side flanges, I'll need to re-jig the casting for this, that's a job for Thursday.. A view from above, the rectangle shape in the casting around the rear exhaust hole is roughly what needs to be removed for the saddle to sit down lower onto the cylinder.. Another to show that the steam inlet lines up... Final picture for tonight is just me double checking that things are as should be, with the middle cylinder in place and parallel to the top of the frames i wanted to see if the main bore was still sitting at the required 7 degree incline. For this I pushed a length of 1/2" BMS into the piston gland opening, calibrated the gauge to be zero on the top of the frames and placed it onto the BMS bar.. ok you can wiggle it + or - 0.1 degree due to the play in the gland and length of bar but it's where it needs to be which is nice too know... So, I know what I'm going to be doing this week after completing my grandfather duties, first will be to machine down the top edge of the cylinder side flanges, that drill/tap all of the 6BA holes, the forward of which are shared with the outside cylinder flanges, I tell you things are certainly close fitting on this design.... With all of that done I will re-check the frames for required holes (still need to do the bowden cable clip holes, will make a jig for those) and then I may be able to take a look at a good clean up and getting some paint on the frames, now that I am looking forward too.... thanks for looking in guys.. Pete Read more: http://modeleng.proboards.com/thread/5733/building-don-youngs-doncaster?page=121#ixzz5EBjhBcPJ

Hi guys thanks for the kind words and my apologies for having no updates of late, I've been waiting for the weather to warm up a little before spending hours in a damp workshop, not been in top form since xmas so spending some time in the warm...having fun thought building a plastic kit...must be nearly a decade since the last time I worked with plastic...it's rather relaxing after machining cylinders... I'm guessing that you are working on full size Giles, or at least 7 1/4", I'd love to volunteer for a preserved railway...none near me but we do plan to move and one of the items on our 'new house' list is a preserved railway near by. Good luck with the Brit Brian, nice loco's...Yes Ian they are a tad expensive, the 3 cylinders costing approx £1k, not something you want to mess up... Promise to do an update soon guys... regards Pete

Thanks Jeff...most helpful sir... regards Pete

Hi guys I'm thinking of selling the above model kit as I doubt that i will ever get around to building it while I still have a long way to go with my 5" version, I know roughly how much i paid for it approx 6 years ago, being perhaps the best available kit of it's class and thus a cost to match it's quality/accuracy, but have no idea as to it's value today. The kit is a Martin Finney, Gresley A1 pacific with corridor tender. I recall a few extra's that I added at the time to the kit, precision coupling rods, a number of Laurie Griffin fittings, full set of slater wheels and a motor, perhaps gearbox too but would have to check to be sure. This is a completely untouched model, the two boxes have only been opened to check parts and to hold the extra items that I added for extra detail. If anyone can help with a value it would help me advertise it and perhaps even convince me that I need to sell it... kind regards Pete

Nice work David I've been reading through your build, great work sir... regards Pete

Hi David Thanks' for your kind comment.... no the castings are not from my patterns although I have done a fair bit of pattern making in my past career.. The designs are all to Don Young, alas I have forgotten the name of his pattern maker who Don did name but he has done a great job in being able to cast in most of the exhaust/steam passages. However the foundry work for the middle cylinder that I'm working on now leaves much to be desired. If I had paid more attention to it when purchasing some years ago I would have rejected it, the outside cylinders in comparison are light years ahead in quality, but 'hey hoe' these things are sent to try us, I think that I should be able to get a working cylinder out of it, I'll know once the steamchest has been machined.... fingers crossed.. cheers Pete

Good day all, this will be my last update before Xmas and perhaps the New Year although if allowed I will try to find time for a little more model engineering, it's good for the soul...honest. First up was to machine the top of the flanges so that they are exactly 7 degrees to the main bore, this will make life much easier for checking that the cylinder is at the correct angle when fitted, there's a fair bit of work involved before I can do this and will touch on it at the end of this update. Here we see my set-up for holding the cylinder, as with the mounting block for the main bore I have added a side support to ensure that the cylinder sits squarely on the 'x' axis for both mill and lathe and also I have added another support plate to the rear (right hand side of picture) to be able to lock the cylinder to the incline without any fear of it slipping. The angle gauge is used just to check that nothing has changed once bolted down. I forgot to add before that the angled block had slots machined in it for holding on the mill bed (the drilled holes for the bolts will be used for the lathe), the cylinder itself is held on the slide bracket at the rear and the front of the steamchest at the front, not the greatest of methods but it worked with no issue. After machining the flanges down to the correct angle (machined the webs too to match) I moved on to the steamchest steam inlet hole, after plotting the center and cross referencing with the dimensions on the drawing I center drilled the top of the inlet stub. Note the exhaust spigot has also been faced off. It was then on to tapping the 1/2"x32tpi thread into the steam inlet... So that's the inlet taken care off... Next up was the exhaust spigot, first job to machine the spigot to 7/8", I did this using the boring head which of course involved the tool bit being held inverted and the mill switched to run in reverse. then it was the turn of the bore itself opening it up as far as possible for hopefully better steaming, not forgetting that for this the tool needed to be turned around and the mill switched to forward. Now when cutting the thread on the saddle exhaust spigot It was easy to do as the saddle was held in the 4 jaw for machining so easier to get the die square to the spigot, for the cylinder I've gone a little 'heath robinson' and done it by feel and eye with the help of a bubble to ensure I didn't run out of square during turning. That's the inlet and exhaust passages taken care off... now with reference to my comments at the beginning, I'm going to spend some time getting the cylinder to sit in it's correct position before machining the steamchest, the reason being is that there's a lot of jiggling around to do here to get things right. There are a number of points to consider first, the bore must be at 7 degrees to the frames, the steamchest must line up with the 2:1 gear stay, there must be clearance for the saddle which when fitted becomes one unit with the cylinder. In the picture the cylinder is roughly in place, it needs to sit lower as in it's current position it's to high blocking the position where the saddle sits above it, the holes shown in the picture are the top 4 for the saddle and the lower 6 for the cylinder. Before I can lower the cylinder I need to remove a little from the rear flange corner to clear the vacuum stay howvere before doing this I need to ensure that the cyliner is in it's correct position distance wise from the saddle exhaust spigot which the drawing states (ref 2 1/2")...now for those who have been following the build for some years you may recall that I have moved the smokebox back 1/8" to match photo's of the prototype, this I believe all has something to do with the front bogie changing from swing link to side control but i won't go through all that again now. This is where we are at for close of play 2017, things are looking good if a little perplexing getting my head around all of the parts that need to add up for this to work, next update should have the final position of the middle cylinder sorted, the saddle drilled for the cylinder exhaust spigot, the steam inlet and also the bottom of the saddle to give clearance for the exhaust passage ways, lot's to do there... that's it for this year, I'd like to take this opportunity to wish everyone a very merry Xmas and assuming I find no time during the festive season for a further update a happy New Year. Merry Xmas Pete edit: seems the pictures have gone wrong again.. I'll try to sort this out later...cheers edit2: well I've managed to sort the images but seem to have two stuck at the end?...can't seem to move them but at least the pictures are up the right way now...

Hi Dave...thanks for the welcome... Being a great admirer of anything by Don I hope you share your build for all to see.I have a soft spot for pre-grouping loco's, they have an elegance about them which my eye enjoys, the Aspinal Class 27 is a good example of such a locomotive. Retiring Friday?...well done to you sir, I hope you can get stuck into the build asap... cheers Pete

Evening guys.. well I've just posted an update on the mech forum and my FB page so will copy/paste the details here... it's only small for tonight and of course you won't pick up on any reference i make to previous updates, some of these guys have been following me for 7 years so it may take those interested a little to catch up. I am currently working on the middle cylinder, I have finished the main bore except for final honing and am now working on the 7 degree angled jig required for the next stage. for thos not familiar with Gresley's design, the middle cylinder is inclined at 7 degrees to clear the leading axle but the steamchest is horizontal so that all steamchests are on the same elevation or the 2:1 conjugated valve gear wouldn't work...anyway, that's where I am up to, this is tonight's small update... Now that the PC is running properly again I can continue with the updates, first picture to finish off where I left off, that being the machining of the slide bar bracket to a height of 3/4" from the centre of the bore below. Now one thing that is becoming more obvious as i work through this casting is that it was clearly a bad one but I'm managing to get around it. The cast itself has been cast offset, that explains the odd shape of the steamchest ends and now that i get to it the offest of the slidebar bracket. I of course centered on the bore below and machined out the bracket to it's 5/8" width, here you can see that there is more meat on one side than the other. Not so obvious in the picture but when using a square the bracket is slightly to one side of the bore? I have no idea what happened during the casting of this pattern, clearly something moved but as long as the steamchest bore machines without issue I think it will be ok, I wouldn't want to have to do all this again on a new casting. When looking at the outside cylinder castings there are none of these issues, they are like a Rolls Royce' to a mini...lol Perhaps i should have rejected the casting when received but to be honest having not seen one before and having not machined it I was a little blind to the problems, still onward and upwards.. Today I have made a start on the jig for holding the middle cylinder at 7 degree's, before machining the angle I first needed to transfer the mounting holes for it to fit on the cross slide as indeed I did the first jig block for machining the main bore. Picture shows the block having had it's face machined flat, (this block was an offcut from my son's work, it had been CNC'd on the lathe and thus had the marks associated with this, easy enough to remove) and the holes partly drilled using the other block as the template, once the angle is doen I'll finish the holes to size, I just needed a register for now. and so after a few hours of machining I had the block to the angle required.. I thought it prudent to finish today's effort to check what angle that the casting was showing before machining... no surprise then that it's out and by some margin at 1.2 degrees, if you recall there was no machining done to the bottom face, it was just flattened with W&D on a flat plate after removing a couple of high spot blobs of metal with a file so I know that the bottom hasn't been machined out of true. As you can see the digital gauge is showing a reading of 5.8 degrees. Just to be sure that all the parts are talking to each other I placed the casting on the machined jig to check it's reading too.. yep.. 1.2 degrees out.. So my next job will be once the holes are finished to set the casting up on the bed using the angled block and machine the top to be horizontal, I could possibly leave it but that would leave me with no datum to check the cylinder against the frames to be sitting fully horizontal in it's proper position, any error here would put the 7 degree incline out. While in this setup I'll also take care of the exhaust and blast passages which will need tapping too, I'll cover these details in the next update... thanks for looking in guys... Pete Edit: Well clearly I have a problem with uploading pictures, these were all taken with the camera (phone) the correct way up so I'm at a loss, I hope that this can be resolved with the help of an admin, I wouldn't want to be responsible for giving you guys a headache trying to view my pictures... edit2: Ok i found a way of sorting this post out but don't think it's practical long term as I have had to copy links from Imgur hosting site and use those, only problem is it duplicates the images on my PC which isn't a good idea.. I'm told that this is a 'forum' issues rather than my side, perhaps an Admin can help? cheers

well I have edited the original post pictures.. the only way that I could get them the correct way up was to try taking pictures from the desktop using my phone at different orientations... got there in the end but afraid the quality is pretty bad. If an Admin knows how to rotate pictures perhaps he'd (she) would be so kind as to let me know how? regards Pete

Hi Barry.. yes taken on an Android..I have tried again today to correct this but no joy so far.... cheers Pete

I just tried rotating them first my end but no joy?..

hmm.. anyone know how to turn the images the right way up, they were fine on my PC?... Pete

Hi guys Although I have been a member of this forum for 7 years it's only recently come to my attention that there is a Model Engineering section, IIRC my first post here was seeking info on 4472 and the place that I log into the most is 7mm as one day when time permits I plan to build a layout in the senior gauge. Now that I have been made aware of this section on RMWEB and if people are interested I'm more than happy to post updates of my build here. I little background on me and the locomotive, I'm semi-retired with a long history working in films/TV as a senior visual effects technician, this role covers many titles, model maker, engineer and special effects among many others, my last role was as 'Art Director' on a British independent film. So during my time both in films and in a previous life in ICI I have done/made many things, I have no formal training in engineering but have learnt an awful lot over the last few decades from those who have during my role in the film industry.. this is my first live steam locomotive although during the last 7 years i did pick up a half built Heilan Lassie just to get a clearer understanding of the operation of a steam locomotive, this model was finished and first run some 3 years ago. I don't get chance to run it these days as i need to get 4472 finished and if I have enough time left build some Gresley teaks to be pulled behind her, I estimate approx. another 10 years before completion of Flying Scotsman as there's an awful lot to do, i would expect the scale backhead fittings and injectors to take a year or more alone. Enough about me, on to the project...... as i said, my first visit to this site was 7 years ago searching for research info on 4472, the project has come on a long way since those early days, prior to this I had been building up my research info into this locomotive, this began approx. 19 years ago when i bought the drawings to Don Young's Doncaster, IMHO the most detailed and closest representation of the class by a man who worked on them and was a professional draftsman, I also refer to works drawings. I would like to think that as of today there's very little that i don't know about this loco, it's various incarnations, it's history and most importantly what i need to do to reproduce an authentic model (baring modellers license and physics) of the most detailed model possible of 4472 as she was in A1 guise in the late 30's The learning never really stops though and I'm always picking up new pieces of important info as I delve deeper into a particular part, this for me though is a big fun part of the exercise. a big reason for posting here is to help increase viewing as many of those on these pages share both engineering and model railways, I certainly do. I can't copy/paste the last 7 years as it's just not feasible, the time this would take would be immense, however if people are interested I'm very happy to include this forum in all of my future updates. A few photo's to show the model so far, I'm not sure if there's a limit or not for posting images on this forum, some of my updates have 10 or more images so please let me know if this will cause a problem? hope the images come out.. Kind regards Pete edit: now that I have found a way of correcting the image issue I have added a few more to this first post

That looks great Simon, I use modern technology too... laser and water cutting, plus some 3D printing to help build 4472 as seen in my avatar... Pete

Hi Simon I didn't scan it myself, I was part of the team that built the larger of the two models used, one (smaller) for flying shots, the other for action...IIRC it was indeed scanned at Stanstead, a specialist team was brought in to do the scanning which is how I know that this service is readily available...this technology is used a lot in film/tv work today...for example, 007's Aston DB5 was scanned for Skyfall, 3D printed too..alas this is what's happening in the industry these days...personally I prefer the hands on approach... Pete

Hi Dave This is just a suggestion as something that I have seen used many times in the making of films, if the CAD guys are struggling with the shape, which I fully understand especially, if as has been pointed out that the works GA drawings are wrong, perhaps using one of the 3D scanner companies out there would solve the issue? These can scan at resolutions down to a couple of microns. I recall when we built the large Antonov aircraft for the Bond film, 'The World is not Enough', the drawings were not available, we got lucky when it visited the UK and production got permission to scan the aircraft, now that was one of the largest in the world so an A4 would be pretty simple in comparison and more available too. Just an idea... Pete

I take my hat off to Hattons/Heljan but have also noticed like Mike that much of the model is based on 4472 during preservation. I have been researching Gresley's A1/A3's for over 20 years now for my own build project and so things jump out at me when wrong. I haven't gone over the model with a fine tooth combe but concentrating on the somebox area, the most obvious errors are ... The somebox tube only suits 4472 after the 80's (can find the exact date if required), no other Gresley pacific (that I'm aware of) had this smokebox, in particular, the row of rivets around the rear of the tube. The front ring (her face) was different too but I can't see it clearly in the Cad drawings. There is no cover plate around the anti-vacuum valve (snifting valve)? again this is as 4472 is today, this cover varied in shape size, being much larger in A1 guise to a little smaller as A3, but nevertheless, it is prominent. Where are the front steps?... fitted in 1935, they have changed a little in preservation but not that you would notice on a model of this size. Not sure what happened when the artist drew the mounting bolts around the ejector elbow but they've grown in number? The mounting bolts around the single chimney are orientated incorrectly, I suspect the double too but as I'm not building this variant, I'd have to research it a little to be sure. There are probably others but as I said I've only glanced over the model's front. Please don't think that I'm just 'nick picking'..I'm not...I am a professional model maker by trade and thus have a keen eye for detail......if the model hasn't been put into production yet these little things could be corrected very easily in CAD and make what's going to be a great model into a masterpiece, it just needs a little more research, IMHO of course.... However, I do appreciate that due to costs Heljan may have concentrated on 4472 as she is today and are just changing liveries and not much in detail to suit other prototypes. kind regards Pete .

I've not looked at this on mine yet, the complete set has now been put away for a future date....however, Mike you mention wire? is this just normal electrical wire or is there some 'sprung wire' in the kit too? I'me just wondering if that is what they intended for the pickups? Like I said I haven't looked closely at the contents of the kit so could be totally wrong.. Pete

my last 3 arrived today too... no time to continue with the build now but will finish her one day Pete

On checking my account today I noticed that's it's status now says 'cancelled' after listing the last three issues to come, so it does finish at 130 as stated.. Pete

I tried to copy and paste the injector details but for some reason I can't do this on my phone...here's a link to the page.... https://www.facebook.com/liveSteamFlyingScotsman/ go to 'about' and then 'products' for the details required.....remember that this info is for 4472 when she was an A1 and right hand drive...it may be that the injectors positions were swapped for left hand loco's....there's a flat stay under the cab.....the injectors sit on this.. Pete

Hi Assuming that the A4 is the same as A1/3 the injectors fit under the cab....there are two different types so you need to get the correct injector on it's correct side...I will try to post more details later...I have all of the info on my facebook page for my 5" flying scotsman build Pete

ahh.. ok I understand what you mean now.. no rods as such...in your picture you can see the connecting link which goes from the 2:1 gear lever to the valve crosshead.. her's the drawing for the link. Now the other parts are made up with crossslides, front and back and a valve spindle in between as per this drawing.... if you look at the general drawing I gave earlier of the valve gear you should be able to work out how these parts connect, the cross slides run in the front/rear steam chest covers, I'm afraid that i don't have drawings for the later type of cover as shown in your picture. Pete

just reread what you asked for Jeff... not sure what you mean by 'front and rear valve rods'??