Caledonian

I think Bob has summed it up pretty well. As I said when Hornby replied, we've made an acknowledged start. We have identified two locomotives which tick all of Bachmann's boxes, and perhaps a third as well. I haven't re-analysed the figures for the Jumbo/812 since the responses crept up to 97, but even if the Jumbo comes out ahead, the 812 might be better on the grounds that a preserved example exists. As to where we go from here, having made that start; I'm a researcher and a wordsmith. I can happily produce all sorts of copy for individuals, organisations and magazines, but it would help immensely if others could actually get in amongst the clubs and organisations, talk to people, provide me with contact information and generally spread the word outside this forum - write your own letters to magazines and post on other forums. I have to disagree with Russ on the stock and sceneray to go with the locos. The ones we've picked survived to the end of steam in Scotland and can be run with what's already available. Scottish buildings would be great, but we've seen how easy it is for Hornby and Bachmann to produce them quickly and cheaply. It aint the same as a locomotive. If either of them produce a couple of Scottish locos, turning out an NBR station pack isn't going to cause them any grief. And yes, if S&DJR locos will sell, there's no way that the right Caley one won't

Ah, but there is a difference between suitable and desireable. If I was content to buy a K3, where's the incentive to tool up a J36?

The operative word (sorry ) is "operated". Its not a Scottish locomotive, so if I'm buying an English locomotive that operated in Scotland I'd much rather have a Black Five, especially as I prefer to model the north of Scotland where they were pretty ubiquitous, hence having three. This thread and the previous one is aimed at persuading the big boys to invest in one or more native Scottish locomotives, rather than have to run a stable made up entirely of imported ones. Put it another way; if I modelled the Southern, would I be shooting myself in the foot by declining to buy say a Fairburn tank and holding out instead for something like an M7?

All good ideas, but I think we need to get out there talking to people long before next year's show. As to the "riding on the back of something else" argument,I don't buy that and I'd suggest the disappointment over the K3 illustrates why. I've thought about one myself but never bothered because while Bachmann are offering a Scottish allocated one in black as well as an English green one, its just not distinctive enough. I bought a third Black 5 instead. A Director or a J38, well maybe, but there's no great enthusiasm and at best its going to be a take that if there's nothing else going... A 439 or a J36 on the other hand, very different story with the former in glorious Caley blue for special editions and the latter as Maude for the WW1 centennial. Lets keep thinking big and distinctive rather than settling for a half hearted compromise - we're already compromising with post grouping locos allocated to Scotland - after all if Bachmann can see a viable case of the localised S&DJR, surely we can offer even better. As to the particulars, we've successfully identified the most useful locos; what we now need to do is find how many people are likely to buy an RTR 439 and/or a J36 if offered one.

From Mr Lovett: Many thanks for your letter regarding the poll of Scottish locomotives recently conducted on RMweb. As you may have gathered we do monitor such activities as part of our media programme. In order for any locomotive type to be considered (irrespective of geographical or other events) a number of criteria have to be met. As a company we have active files on about 20 motive power items at any one time. Some will end up in our catalogue; others will fall by the wayside for a number of reasons (including other manufacturers announcements) or emerge again in future years. Any programme has to have a balance and our own 2010 announcements clearly reflect this with Bachmann entering a couple of new areas. Locomotives that do make it into the catalogue have often been requested over a considerable period of time. They have probably been in the top few positions of the wish lists produced at this time of year for some time. I spoke to many people on the subject of Scottish locomotives at this years Glasgow show. As you will appreciate this has only become an area of activity in the last few months and certainly far to late to influence any 2010 or indeed 2011 programme, our own 2011 programme being agreed last month in order for the Research and Development Team the opportunity to start gathering in all the data required to produce a model, along with images, works drawings and other essential information. Any locomotive would need to attract initial sales of at least 5,000 and 9,000 over time. We have experience in working with the NRM (DP1 Deltic and ‘City of Truro’) and Murphy Models to produce exclusive editions for those organisations. In the case of the Murphy clas 141/181 versions, a large number of livery variations were possible in order to justify the tooling costs. Any Scottish model considered for sale will need to take into account geographical spread, have a long service life (preferably lasting as close until the end of steam as possible) and livery options. For example a Highland Railway Castle Class is unlikely to meet this criteria as it was a small class (19 locomotives built 1900-1917), was withdrawn between 1930 and 1947 and operated only north of Perth. Any locomotive chosen would require extensive works general assembly drawings, photographic back-up and ideally be preserved to enable cross checking of information. Perhaps a way forward would be to identify the sales potential of the chosen subject through existing group memberships (such as the Caledonian or North British organiatons), leading Scottish retailers and model railway clubs (perhaps through the Association of Scottish Model Railway Clubs – the organisers of the Model Rail event in Glasgow). At the moment, sadly the information provided is not going to compete against more called for locomotive classes. We do not rely simply on wish list polls. We also use a mix of customer feedback together with a helping of “gut†feeling. Some like the K3 and Mark 2 coaches have not had the projected sales that they should have generated from being ever requested items… At the end of the day, then any model we make must be commercially viable and sell in considerable quantities in order to justify the high cost of development and tooling. I wish you well in your endeavours and look forward to seeing the gathered data. So there we have it. The missing paragraph discussed a series he’s been involved in writing in the Bachmann Collectors Club magazine, on recreating Kirriemuir Station (which is exactly the sort of layout we need to be publicising) by way of demonstrating he’s not unsympathetic. I think the technical data we provided met a lot of his criteria, though it can obviously be bulked up from a single side of A4 on re-submission; the critical thing though is going to be demonstrating that our chosen three (or if the worst comes to the worst just the 439 and the J36) will command extensive sales and that, as he suggests, means knocking on a lot of doors.

Interesting response from Dennis Lovett at Bachmann (no, not an announcement), I'll post more later after I get back from Scouts

Letter was slightly butchered removing reference to the poll (96 responses now) and the Glasgow show which was fair enough as its been and gone, but I thought it was interesting that Mike Wild added that photo and referred to the 439 as charming. Only his opinion of course but it does suggest there could be a wider potential for interest in Scottish locomotives and as himself observes: "As regards the late BR steam period, perhaps it is the possibility of a range of locations, both main line and branches, where the pre-group types and LMS and LNER designs genuinely worked side by side, along with BR equipment, plus some occasional exotics." Its those branch lines - and more than just Ian Futers' West Highland ones - and the mixture of stock which have the greatest potential to enthuse, rather than the big flagship ones like Alloa.

And you can't in Scotland? B)

Arithmetic was never my strong point However: a response from Simon Kohler: "Thank you for your letter as well as the fact files for the three Scottish locomotives that you and many of your associates would like to see produced as a 1:76 scale model. "I am most appreciative of the research etc that you and your associates have obviously carried out and although I cannot promise or give hope, the locomotives that you propose do certainly give food for thought." Now, OK on one level this could be read as a polite thank you but... On the other hand, given the traditional secrecy on announcements of forthcoming models there's no way on God's Green Earth that he was ever going to come back to us and say "what a splendid idea and he's going to get his elves working on at least one of them right away" We've made an acknowledged start; we all now need to build on that. The easy bit is making sure the favourites (up to 92 pollsters now) appear on every wish list going; not forgetting Hornby's very own one. What we've also got to do is raise the profile of Scottish layouts and make them seen as sexy. Mention has been made above of Bachmann's announcements anent the S&DJR. Neither of the locos are going to be much good to us, but, this is a railway which on the face of it has a pretty rotten business case for investment; its small, localised and had hardly any locos of its own; yet whether or not its tremendously popular right now its certainly got a pretty high profile, thanks to the efforts of the likes of Tim Maddocks. The point is that we have the potential to do the same, if not better. I and a lot of others who've contributed to this poll model Scottish railways because we are Scottish, but its not an exclusive club. How many S&DJR modellers actually live on or near to the original line; not that many I suspect but it certainly hasn't cramped their style. We need to do the same with Scottish layouts. "West Highland" ones have always been popular with D&E modellers, but steam offers just as much potential if not more; A3s on the Waverley route, A4s on the four hour Glasgow to Aberdeen; the Killin puggies and the "lost" CR lines in Angus. There's a huge, exciting potential out there to attract non-Scottish modellers if we can raise the profile and ultimately create even more demand for Scottish outline locos.

At the moment I'm content to wait a little while and see what happens; as of this post there were actually 91 responses to the poll and while the actual figures are fluctuating the picture remains clear and steady with both the 439 tank and the Class 3/J36 coming top on their own and the Jumbo/812 overall top once the figures are disentangled from those voting for both. Whatever way you look at it there's a very clear demand for three locomotive types used all over Scotland and, very literally in the case of the J36, up to the end of British Railways steam in Scotland. Now going on from that there are two other important points to be made when we get a formal response from Hornby and Bachmann. Firstly there is an undeniable demand for Scottish locomotives and while not all of those participating voted for a 439 or a J36 I find it very hard to believe that they wouldn't buy one if offered. Secondly, while in global terms this is a small poll it does equate to just over 10% of this one forum and as has been pointed out earlier in the thread all polls are based on relatively small population samples. If 10% of RTR modellers want Scottish outline locomotives that's a big market, and even if we round it down to reflect the importance of RMweb vis a vis other sites, and those who don't play on the internet at all, we have still got a very significant sample here. As to spreading the word, I'm doing my best, but its up to you lot to pitch in as well

Hi Andy, thanks again for posting Dennis Lovett's comments. I don't know whether he's actually had a chance to read and inwardly digest the actual poll; but the point of it was that faced with the wide variety of prototypes he rightly alludes to we did actually come up with a clear idea of exactly what we do want. Turning the question around, given the strong level of support shown by the poll is there any Scottish steam modeller who would not buy a decent RTR model 439 if offered one?

Good for you, exactly what we need. Who held which hand? I have happy visions of you leading both of them at the same time and carefully explaining to them what they need to do - yes Mum -

I have indeed, but that's not to prevent you or anybody else speeding the plough by doing the same. After all the whole point of this exercise is to demonstrate (1) that there is a real demand for Scottish steam locomotives and (2) that we're pretty much agreed on which ones we want.

Having sorted out the profiles - sticking to Churchill's dictum that one sheet of paper for each is enough - and updated the letter to reflect the 82nd voter, I've now written to Simon Kohler at Hornby and Dennis Lovett at Bachmann. Hopefully the results of the poll and in particular the very clear support for the three locomotives concerned will also be reflected in the forthcoming annual wish-list. Can I close by thanking everyone who participated in the poll. While we'd a pretty good idea what we wanted before it began, the fact that no fewer than 82 people took the trouble to vote on this website over just a couple of weeks is quite astonishing and surely demonstrates the level of support for some Scottish locomotives. As to how it'll turn out...

First Draft of letter to Messrs Hornby and Bachmann: Dear Scottish Locomotives As you will be aware there has been a long standing desire for native Scottish locomotives to supplement the post-grouping types such as Black Fives, B1s and of course the Standard classes, which are currently the only RTR models available to the Scottish modeller. A recent Scottish Locomotives poll on the RMweb site has proved a great success and produced a surprising and quite heartening unanimity as to what is required. Over the course of a month a total of 81 participants, armed with three votes apiece on a wide slate of popular locomotives ranging from the McIntosh 439 Standard Tank to Glens and Dunalastairs, overwhelming voted for the 438 (50); J36 (47); and Caledonian Jumbo (45), with the rest effectively coming nowhere. The reasons given both during the poll and the earlier wide ranging discussion which produced the short-list, was that notwithstanding the glamour of the Glen or the Dunalastair, modellers really wanted working locomotives and in particular 0-6-0 tender locomotives – a sentiment apparently much shared by modellers from other regions. Profiles of all three locomotives are attached and you will note that they represent large classes, displaying a variety of liveries over their lifetimes, ranging from Caledonian blue to British Railways grime. They were all three, in short, ubiquitous and indeed a pair of J36s were the last steam locomotives run by British Railways in Scotland. We have no doubt that the results of the RMweb poll will be reflected in the upcoming annual wish-list poll and would be pleased to see any or all of these models in future catalogues. Yours Sincerely Stuart Reid

Just a quickie before the site shuts down tonight; with 80 members casting their votes the results are pretty clear: 49 votes for the McIntosh 439 46 votes for the J36 37 votes for the Caley Jumbo Adding the eight voters for the 419 who didn't also vote for a Jumbo, the latter rises to 45 votes. I'm rather heartened by this unanimity, despite the usual talk of Dunalastairs and the like in wish lists, when it comes down to the crunch people seem pretty clear about what they really need. What we need to do now is take this forward, not just to Hornby and Bachmann, but out to the wider world through the Glasgow show and the upcoming wishlist poll and make sure that everybody rallies around these choices rather than firing off in all directions. I would certainly buy all three before anything else.

Thanks John As you'll obviously have noticed the J36 looks like being one of the three we're going to push for and that information is certainly going to help when we put the sales pitch together - probably next week.

I'm not sure that "enthusiasts" is the right word; if its just a question of something pretty Hornby already have their 123 and seemingly no incentive to go to the trouble of replacing it. The point of the poll and the discussion that preceded it was to establish the best choice of Scottish locomotives for a working layout and that, like it or not means locomotives which ran in British Railways black. A Jones Goods would be nice; I might even buy a decent one, but what I really want are working locomotives rather than preserved exotics.

Have to disagree; on an earlier discussion on Atlantics, possibly in a galaxy far far away, it was pointed out that the real cost of developing a new locomotive isn't in the chassis but in the body-shell and detailing. Therefore a body-shell which can be used for multiple identities is a good plus point but mounting different body-shells - say umpteen different Atlantics on the same chassis is nowhere near as attractive. As to Atlantics, they were never considered for the poll for the simple reason that while the NBR Reid Atlantic was a magnificent beast none made it into British Railways and so Hornby and Bachmann won't touch it.

Its all part of the process thanks; what I'd like to do is get a clear consensus as to what we want ahead of the Glasgow show and then try to get everybody else there behind the three choices, rather than firing off in all sorts of different directions. We'll still keep the poll running for a while yet, but I think its interesting that although there's always been talk in wish list threads about Dunalastairs and the like; despite given three votes to play with, there's a very clear demand for a a 439 and both Caley and North British 0-6-0s at the expence of the 4-4-0s.

I'd be happy to put forward a proposal for a 439, a J36 and a Caley 0-6-0 as these are shaping up to be the clear favourites and in an ideal world we might see Hornby doing one and Bachmann the other. I suggest we leave things as they are at least until the end of next week and then do another poll for a run-off between the Jumbo and 812.

We'll see how it goes a bit further on but we may need a run-off on the 0-6-0s, given that the Jumbo and 812 are so close both in terms of votes and size/shape/appearance - yes they are different but not enough for a manufacturer to produce both.

I've prepared a draft letter to go to MREmag, Hornby Magazine and a couple of other likely candidates, any comments? "A long-standing problem has been the lack of good quality RTR models of Scottish locomotives. It is of course possible to get by perfectly well with Black Fives and other LMS and LNER designed locomotives, to say nothing of the Standards, but there is still a crying need for one or more actual Scottish locomotives to impart the necessary signature. The most obviously useful candidate is the Caledonian Railway's McIntosh designed 439 "standard passenger tank" which was pretty well ubiquitous in British Railways days, but there are a number of other equally worthy candidates and in order to demonstrate the likely level of support for a distinctively Scottish RTR locomotive to Messrs Hornby and Bachmann, interested parties are invited to log on to the poll currently being carried on the RMweb site and express their preferences for a package of three options to be forwarded to the manufacturers."

By popular request I've put together a poll, listing the various options discussed on the earlier thread. While there is widespread support for a 439 it's been helpfully suggested that Hornby and Bachmann are more likely to respond positively to a package of two or three, hence the nine options listed here. Essentially, we're looking at locos working on secondary services, which survived through to British Railways and will provide an unmistakeable Scottish identity for our layouts. The only tank engine on the list is the 439. While there would obviously be support for an 0-6-0 or even an 0-4-0 shunting tank, I reckon this is something for the "second wave" and that those listed above have more chance of attracting interest from the manufacturers. Thus far I've not attached any photos - so please feel free. In response to a sensible suggestion, I've added an asterisk to those represented by preserved examples

Thanks for the responses lads; so long as Bachman don't produce one with Westinghouse pumps I might just be able to avoid the temptation to redress the horrid lack of Caley locos in RTR