Jol Wilkinson

John, 

don't forget that the Dining Saloons were 65' 6" and the Modellers World kits for these do pop up s/h from time to time. I would recommend leaving a bit more clearance if you think you are likely to seek out and build one.

Jol

6 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

I go to see layouts with trains operating on them and for me at least, the layout is probably more important than the details of what is running on it. 

 

I couldn't agree more. For me- and this is obviously a personal thing- I don't find the vast layouts with long trains simply running through them as engaging as smaller (but not necessarily small) layouts with a lot of operation. What i don't like, whether as operator or visitor, is the situation where the operators are too busy keeping constant movement going to interact with anyone. If I see a layout that inspires me I want a chance to talk to the person who built it and, for a visitor who is shyer than me- perhaps just getting into the hobby- it's very easy to get the idea that they're simply not allowed to talk to the builders/operators.

The MRC's mini exhibition at Keen House just before Christmas was very good for this and, though I specifically went to see Minories (GN) once more, there were at least two other layouts that I got a lot from by talking to the builder.    

A somewhat late reply but I was giving some guidance to a visiting friend on building a P4 point. He has tinkered with 00 and 0 but since taking early retirement wanted to enjoy the challenges and enjoyment of P4.

Sometimes there is a conflict between keeping the trains running and talking to to visitors. After several years of exhibiting with ready access for viewers to the operators running the fiddle yards we found it better to put up full height surrounds. The reason was simply that the operators couldn't concentrate on keeping to the schedule we needed to follow to avoid confusion and keep the trains running. Whilst the best solution was having someone devoted to the doing the latter, it isn't always possible or economic for the exhibition manager to provide for an extra body. A partial solution is to provide information displays, which we did with London Road. These covered the LNWR as well as the layout.

The Spanish GP to be held in Madrid from 2026. Another circuit with a boring street track section, but presumably the FIA/FOM get more money out of it.

I can only lay claim to building a Proscale LNWR Coal Tank. This was the first P4 loco I built and the only problem with the kit itself was the boiler to smokebox fit as I recall. This was easily remedied. The frames which had "drop in" slots for the driving wheel axle bearings, which might have been alright for 00, but weren't suitable for P4 so I built a new chassis with AGW milled brass frames. At the time it was the best kit for a LNWR  Coal Tank, the other option being a K's white metal kit. 

I don't think they ever became available again after the original designer withdrew them, one of the reasons why London Road Models introduced their kit of the Coal Tank.

Thanks, its not that heavy but was made big enough to accommodate a number of 16vac to 12vdc rectifier/regulators as well as several long tag strips between the switches and connector sockets to arrange the wiring systematically and for fault detection. It isn't quite so neat now as it was! The more spacious layout was also intended to make it easier for the signalman at exhibitions to see what he was doing.

A smaller, neater unit would now be better but it was easier to keep this one and rewire it for the new track sections. 

I've just got to make the two new connector cables and will then start on the storage sidings panel.

When I read The Johnsters posting I thought I was confused and this was the "Accentuate the negative - who's trying to kill the hobby?" topic.

Whilst there may be fewer modellers building models of locos, carriages etc., seduced by the easy availability of RTR, the kit building sector of the hobby is still strong as others have pointed out. The downside of RTR is a "commonality of modelling", whereas kits provide a much wider range of models for those who prefer to choose what they model, rather than be led by the manufacturers.

Etched kits, some supplemented by resin castings, currently provide the best  offerings. White metal casting, if well done can provide good models but - other than weight - are not comparable in terms of crips detail and finesse. 3D printing is still in its infancy and, like the early days of etching, some suppliers have yet to realise that it isn't perfect for everything. Mixed media kits, using the best materials for different parts, give the best results. The etch loco kit suppliers do that, with etches, resin, w/m, brass and n/s castings, etc.

So why do white metal kits remain popular? Because they are cheaper and simpler.

On 18/01/2024 at 19:11, BrushType4 said:

Finally our commission for a 4mm Coal Stage is done and we now have this available as a limited edition kit. 

 

Looks very good. Any further thoughts on the LNWR Northlight engine shed we spoke about some time ago?

56 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Phil,

 

Other than lacking in ability, I don't think I have the right temperament to be a model painter, other than the most-basic.

 

I don't think I cope well with jeopardy, which increases with every stage in a painting job. Take this scenario, for instance - the primer goes on fine, as does the main colour. Secondary/tertiary colours go on OK as well (with a bit of masking if necessary), as do any decals, though fiddling with transfer lining can be a pain. Finally, the varnish coat - the final act. It won't dry properly (I've had some which remain 'sticky' months afterwards!), or dries patchy, or shiny when it should be matt or matt when it should be shiny, or 'blooms' and goes 'milky'! Then, it all has to come off!  I definitely don't have the temperament to cope with that; indeed, I no longer varnish locomotives I've painted. Add on to those horrors, the fact that with every successive coat of paint there is the risk of tiny bits/tiny insects/hairs contaminating the surface; as for being a cat's servant.............

 

I'm frequently told that I must have great patience (a part of temperament?). The opposite is true; I have very little patience, and cannot wait to finish a model so that I can get on with the next one, and the next............ Had I patience, then I doubt my loco-building total would have reached three figures.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Tony,

at least you tried. Too many people seem to suffer from Fear of Failure so don't even have a go. Incidentally Ian Rathbones recommend technique for airbrushing Ronseal varnish works very well.

As for patience, isn't that waiting for something to happen, rather than getting on with it? What you appear to suffer from/enjoy is frustration with your own work rate, which in my view is remarkable. If you want to see slow progress, pop round someday.

Jol

1 minute ago, fezza said:

It is interesting though that some shows have lots of smaller suppliers (Gauge O Guild and Stafford to name but two) so presumably small suppliers think these are cost-effective and worthwhile despite the fuel and accommodation costs?

 

It's not only about immediate sales, of course. Shows are an opportunity to remind people you exist (or still exist) and promote future sales. That's certainly how my old family firm (admittedly in a very different niche business) viewed shows and exhibitions.

 

 

I took a look at the list of traders for Stafford 2023 and very few fit what I think of as smaller traders or appear in that forum topic on RMweb, compared with those that do attend the shows I mentioned, most of whom tend to be manufacturer suppliers. Roxey Mouldings, Alan Gibs, NuCast Partners/Branchlines, London Road Models, Brassmasters, Cambrian, Rumney Models, Judith Edge kits, Dart Castings and various others. These are the backbone of the 4mm kit building sector of this hobby yet it is often not worthwhile them attending many shows.

While attending shows can be good PR, it still only works if their are sufficient prospective buyers there.

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

Having a stand at an exhibition has always been "on the edge" for many small traders. Its not just the trade space, its maybe hiring a van, hotel accommodation and spending a weekend talking to people at a show when they could be at home making more things to sell. It was often marginal pre-covid but all of these "peripheral" costs have jumped up considerably over the last few years. I agree its a shame that many small traders don't tend to go to anything but local shows these days but I think we can all see why.

Small local shows are often not worthwhile for the small "specialist" suppliers (e.g. etched kits and bits) as they don't get enough of the "specialist" modeller. The national Society shows and medium size "finescale" shows are those that tend to be most viable.

12 hours ago, robmanchester said:

 

Lack of response from "small" suppliers can be annoying when you send an email to ask questions. Some of them are holding down full time jobs and supplying us with the parts we desire so it is difficult to be too critical.

 

Rob

 

From the experience of one Smaller Supplier that I know well, it appears that people often don't look at website information about ordering, payment, deliveries,  etc. and send emails asking for that very information. So time is wasted dealing with those enquires (some of which then repeatedly come back with further questions on the same topics) hence delaying more relevant questions from other regular or potential customers. An example of people's inability to RTFM?

12 hours ago, john new said:

But there is/are the televised game(s) and home drinking options, so I believe that it is a reasonable, if not exact comment.

 

My tuppence worth re kits -v- rtr, at least for locomotives, is that there was a step change that occured around the time of Model Railway Journal's introduction.  Not the the only factor, MRJ  wasn't cause and effect by any means but it was a reflection of the changes. Etched brass kits of varying buildability and a higher standard of fidelity was being promulgated as the way to go. Around a similar time, if my memory of forty to fifty years back is correct, Wills bodyline kits to go onto modified r-t-r chassis also stopped. That didn't stop the expert builders but did cut out a stepping stone progression. That is especially true for locomotives needing valve gear. Loco kits would perhaps begin to reverse their decline in popularity if the valve gear came as a pre-built item. Sadly, as the r-t-r market has changed getting hold of spare chassis as separate items is also more difficult as evidenced on threads like the Jintystiens one.

 

We still have relatively easy to build plastic kits from several manufacturers  but then a gap to what, for beginners in loco building at least, appears a daunting jump into etched kits. 

 

I can't speak for others but I have decided that I need to overcome that issue (Is fear the word?) and have booked a Missenden course so that I don't screw up the B!6 kit I have in hand to make. I can solder brass, and have done so but as the brass chassis kit I tried as my first attempt didn't go well I didn't try another. The descriptions of having to hammer brass pins in valve gear, having to work with several different melt point solders and the like was off putting.

 

To sum up, I do still build stuff, and enjoy making things, but over the last few years or so that effort seems to have gone more into assisting my wife in making theatre props than into my model railway items. With that it has been simple weathering jobs.

 

From first hand experience I know that quite a few modellers want to start their etched kit building journey with a loco and often an unsuitable one for a first choice at that - outside valve gear, etc. - rather than a relatively simple and low cost item like a four wheel van. Learning how to solder effectively isn't difficult if you follow a few basic and sensible rules, which I learned from several experienced and competent modellers. Unfortunately advice on social media platforms is often contradictory (just search for "How to Solder" on RMweb to see by how much) and often recommends the cheapest way to do it, rather than using the proper tools and materials. A bit like recommending leftover Dulux matt wall paint when you should be using  modelling enamel or acrylic paint. 

As regard to the cost of RTR versus kits, it is perhaps worth looking at the overall picture. How many model builders have as many kit built locos as those that buy RTR ones (Tony excepted!). I have fifteen, plus two partially built and three unbuilt kits. I don't need any more to run my (as yet) unfinished layout. I have built a few more over time but no longer have those as they weren't up to my now quite average standard or didn't fit my later modelling direction. A look at the manufacturer's new product announcements on RMweb and other threads will show that people will readily buy multiples of new models, especially where different liveries and "eras" are available. So collections of fifty or one hundred plus locos are not at all uncommon.

So while the unit cost may not be very different and has often been more for a complete kit "package", it is quite likely that those that build from kits spend less over time.

It is disappointing that so many "modellers" claim they don't have the ability or skill to build models from kits. 

None of are skilled when we are born. We have to learn to walk, talk, draw, paint, ride a bike, play golf, solder, make a bacon sandwich, the list is endless. We learn because we have to or want to. Perhaps too many people, increasingly want to be spoon fed in many walks of life (how often do you hear "somebody should do something about it").

If you want to create a model of a place, a period of time, etc. than you will make the effort to do what is required. The alternative is to create a layout around what others manufacture, which can have its limitations. That appears to be the route most bpeople are happy to tread.

11 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

I presume there are fewer people buying detailing kits, which is either an indication of how good RTR has got since they started (the forthcoming Hornby Black 5 addresses most of the shortcomings the BM kit addressed) or how lazy RTR buyers have become. The continuing development of Easi-Chass would suggest the former. No-one sells a conversion kit to beat a Lima 33 into a 26 or 27 anymore either, we all just bought the Heljan ones instead.  

Both, although I am more inclined to think that it isn't just laziness but an unwillingness to have a go at building something perceived as difficult and the fear of failure. 

Perhaps the "popularity"of Easi-chass and other products to "improve" RTR models such as the High Level chassis kits is more down to those who model EM and P4 gauges, than the 00 modeller wanting to improve what they see as already excellent models. The downside of the availability or such RTR models is that people tend to create layouts around what they can readily buy off the shelf, rather than choosing what they want to model and buying/building/creating the models to achieve that.

A look at the layouts appearing at the 4mm Society and other "finescale2 exhibitions will usually include a number of early BR steam, pre-WW2 and pre-group layouts where the models have been kit or scratch built. Contrast that to as show with a majority of 00 layouts, which will invariably have BR diesel focussed modelling.

7 minutes ago, lezz01 said:

I don't remember EAMES but I have very similar memories of Puffers when it was next to Kenton station. I tried to buy it along with a fellow MRC member but it came to nothing as the owner wouldn't let us examine the accounts properly and it didn't include the rights to the kits and the lease was coming to an end. Had it included the Perseverance range we would have made it work but without it the shop itself was worth very little.

Regards Lez.   

Chris Parrish closed the shop and moved to Pickering, drawn by his involvement with the NYMR. When he passed away the range of Puffers/Perseverance remained with his wife but after some years are now with another "small supplier" (otherwise they would have ended in the skip) although, as is often the case they were undocumented or catalogued and need sorting out. It required a LWB Transit to move it.

2 hours ago, Pebbles said:

Whilst based in Eastbourne, my patch extended to Camberley. One day, in about 1977/78, after keeping my appointment I took the opportunity of visiting EAMES. A real Aladdin's cave of a shop.

This story comes from my wife. Many years ago, at one of her club meeting, she met the wife of someone who was connected to EAMES. This woman claimed that after EAMES had closed she "inherited" ( my wife's description),  a garage full of ex EAMES stock that she still had.  This story could of course be one of those Rosebud Kitmaster A3 moments.

When living in Ilford I would occasionally visit Kings Cross Models, one buying a Jamieson MR Compound kit, but it was beyond my abilities at the time and was sold on partly built.

Later I had a job that covered quite a large area in the south east and so was able to visit a number of model shops during my travels. Some disappointed - not living up to what their RM adverts lead you to believe, while others were real treasure troves. On such was Tony Collets shop in Portsmouth, where the kit/scratch builder could find literally anything  they wanted. Later Puffers of Kenton became my go to shop, where a wide range of kits and bits, plus advice were available. I occasionally visited Blunts of Mill Hill, although they were more of a "general" model shop with RC models, etc.

Positive news, although the statement that the business was founded by Frank Hornby seems a bit wide of the mark.

1 hour ago, Crosland said:

 

 

 

The law requires that any business selling on line provides a full geographic contact address. Their contact page now has nothing, not even a 'phone number.

 

A PO Box address was also in breach of the law.

Is their a difference between online selling and distance selling? Although Brassmasters have an online catalogue. you can't click and order from them in the same way you can from eBay or Amazon. I have just had a looklon eBay at an item I bought recently from a registered trader and couldn't find a postal address other than Middlesex, UK. 

11 hours ago, Fen End Pit said:

Given I am in the process of finishing the design of an EasiChas for an Ivatt class 2, a complete kit for an ex-GER J17, producing boilers for the reintroduced J94 and detail parts for a Coronation all for Brassmasters I can say I am not expecting them to go away anytime soon.

 

Always amazes me the speculative dross the internet kicks out.

 

David

David,

it isn't the internet. its some of the people that use it.

Jol

4 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Oh dear - that would seem to be indicative of another valued supplier in the process of withdrawing from the market.

 

CJI.

Their new loco and chassis kit announcements would indicate otherwise.

This is probably BM simply  streamlining their business and discontinuing the low volume. low value sales items. Their statement that they are discontinuing sales of etched windows appears to have gone unnoticed but I understand that these will still be available through another supplier.

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

But more everyday photographers and photos than ever before.

Because mobile phones have made photography very easy. You don't  have to think about settings, composition, etc.  just point and squirt. If you don't like the result, do it again. You can also share your photos easily and at no cost, although it does appear that photo prints are becoming popular again.

49 minutes ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

 

That video is a perfect example. Youtube opens the window to this wonderfully global hobby, showing us layouts that we would never get to see at a model show.

So many of the most incredible and detailed North American layouts are like that one, permanently living in someone's madly big basement. Never going to see that at a show!

Or the multitude of utterly amazing Japanese layouts out there. You very rarely see Japanese layouts at UK shows, and some Japanese railway modellers are true artists.

I don't understand choosing to ignore a form of media that allows you to experience layouts you would never see and watch tutorials by some of the worlds greatest modellers.

How can that ever be a waste of time? I'll never understand that one. And it's not like you have to make a choice, you can easily go to shows and watch YT videos 😄

Whilst videos can show layouts that can only be seen in the owners home, much also depends on the quality of the filming. Often a video fails to capture the extent and overall view of a layout, something which you can appreciate when seeing it at an exhibition. You ca, if you wish, also interact with the layout builders/operators as well as other viewers 

Social media, dvds and books provides a platform for teaching and sharing skills and techniques but there are often times when a one to one meeting provides a much better opportunity to learn. Why else are there demonstrators at many shows? How thick should the paint really be when you are airbrushing it, why does someone's attempts at soldering not work, how can I make this loco run better, etc. etc.

I am a member of a national model railway society area group with eleven members. Two are also model engineers, one has a comprehensive woodwork shop, one is an experienced CAD etched kit designer, another an outstanding model figure painter  (from a wargaming background), some are experienced kit and track builders. So there is a lot of experience, capability, tools and experience to be shared within the group.

So whilst many people may prefer to model in isolation, there can be advantages from being within a club or group. How many of the solo modellers also attend shows, a significant number I would suggest. So while social media provides another way to share information and see layouts, for many the "social" side of modelling is also very important and can play a part in their modelling journey.

48 minutes ago, Grahams said:

For those who are on Facebook, there is a new Facebook group "Midland Railway - The Best Way"

https://www.facebook.com/groups/midlandrailway

It's a private group so please ask to join and mention you have seen this post in your answers to the questions.

The idea of the group is to attract those on Facebook who have an interest in the Midland and inspire them to engage in discussion about the railway.

We are keen to attract anyone with an interest in any aspect of the Midland.

Anything Midland related is welcome. Historic or modern photos of stations, infrastructure, engines, carriages, wagons, sidings, documents, family members who worked on the Midland, models of the Midland, garden railways, miniature railways, photos of infrastructure still existing, preserved railways, engines and rolling stock. Anything Midland!

Active posters will be especially welcome as we will need varied content, discussions, questions and answers.

The LNWR Society has a very active Facebook group. The Forum is somewhat less active, which is regrettable as as forums have "index pages" are more readily searchable for the material I am interested in. For me, forums beat Facebook any time.

1 hour ago, Strathwood said:

"Just wondering what the trade will do with regards to launching their NEW models to the modelling fraternity."

Kevin

The RTR suppliers already have plenty of outlets for their product news. RMweb and other forums, magazine reviews together with PR announcements and advertising, as well as other major shows such as Alexander Palace. Bachmann already take a stand at York and I am sure that several other exhibition managers would be happy to have the RTR producers take a presence at their show, to raise its "profile".