Jol Wilkinson

Hi Jol

 

Looking good so far. It's nice to know you get problems when building kits just like us lesser mortals . How is the layout coming on? Any pictures? Another Topic maybe?

 

I'm still working on the Precursor Tank chassis and trying to get it to run reliably round the corner into 'Clarendon'. As I've sprung the drivers by CSB's it's just a case of getting the correct combination of spring wire. Hopefully I'll have her running for the derby show in a fortnight.

I'm having the same problem with the B4, I think I might modify the front bogie to work similar to the precursor one and see if that might help it get round the curve.

 

Keep at it.

 

Cheers

 

Andy

Andy,

thanks, but I've always regarded myself as a lesser mortal as well.

I think John Gower's article in the Hornby Magazine stated that the curve into Clarendon was fairly tight. The Precursor Tanks have a longish wheelbase - the prototype derailed it self getting out of Crewe Works - so you may have to ensure you've got the maximum sideplay. As the B4 is suffering too, perhaps you should get the layout modified!

Progress on the layout is slow but steady. I'll be away a lot in the next two weeks but I'll endeavour to start a layout thread/blog after that. I'm looking for some local help - the rest of the operating team live around North London - if anyone would like to produce any of the buildings, bridges or signals.

Too much of my time recently has gone into designing the Webb rebuilt Bloomer for LRM -

there is also the original version and short wheelbase tender, so its been rather time consuming. I've also started on four more LNWR 42' Brake Third carriages.

Jol

Episode 3 - the body!

The Precursor body etch is in .012" brass, unfortunately rather soft in my example. A lot of it is half etched, which exacerbates the problem. The "boiler" supplied was a piece of copper pipe. As it's important to get the firebox end "square" for the round top version (the bits to build the Belpaire firebox version are also included in the kit) I discarded that and turned a suitable piece of brass tube to length in a Unimat. The construction is fairly straightforward but getting the running plate curved over the valances proved rather difficult.

I've made the boiler/smokebox a separate bolt on unit. It is a bit difficult to get the cosmetic upper frames that extend back from the smokebox to sit down closely on top of the running plate (which is how the LNWR referred to the footplate) on the RH side. It should be alright when its all bolted together. The cab roof was also a bit fragile until the supports were solderd in, which has stiffened up the cab area . The body will be retained by a 8BA bolt into the rear spacer and the coupling hook through the front buffer beam (retained by a pin). That give a slightly loose fixing, that bprevents the body from distorting the chassis an affecting the running.

The boiler fittings are cast white metal, a little disappointing as cast brass is so much better.

Now I've got this far I'll concentrate a bit more on finishing it. It's been languishing in its box rather too much, but I have been busy building test etches of the next London Road Models LNWR kits as well as working on the layout.

Episode 2 - the loco frames/chassis.

The Brassmasters Precursor chassis is designed along the same lines as their older 4-6-0 LNWR locos. BM also designed a chassis for the 4-4-2 Precursor Tank which London Road Models initially used in their PT loco kit. This chassis has the front end of the frames pivoted ahead of the front driving axle and supported by a compensated bogie.

I had built one of these but wasn't entirely happy with it as there is no side control for the front end or any support for the front of the loco. Result, I ended up designing a new chassis for LRM with a sprung bogie and rear radial truck. I modified the artwork to produce a set of frames and P4 spacers for a new Precursor chassis.

The chassis was built from the new frames, with the coupling rods, brake gear, slide bars, etc. from a LRM Precursor Tank chassis test etch. The chassis is compensated on the leading coupled axle, using LRM hornguides. The driving wheels are Sharman with Alan Gibson bogie wheels. I've used a 1424 Mashima mounted on a LRM 50:1 GB4 motor mount. The "underslung" motor arrangement is my prefered option whenever possible, the motor casing sitting against an angled spacer extension on a double sided sticky pad.[

attachment=36380:Chassis 1.JPG]

To follow, Episode 3 - the loco body.

This looks really good. Many thanks. Are the back corners of the Tender half-etched and does one have to punch out the adjacent rivets? Or are the side and back panels overlays?

The side panels, corners and the back panel are separate parts. They are all half etched, to provide the rivet and beading detail. Fortunaltely there are no rivets to emboss. that was the problem with the side frames which, when half etched in 012" brass were too flimsy. I did the replacements in .015" ns, with punched rivet detail.

In response to Coachman's request on PinkMouse's thread about the BM LMS Class 4, here are some details on the BM Precursor 4-4-0 I am building - in a very protracted manner. This build has been going on for a couple of years, so some of the assembly details are a little hazy.

I started with the tender, to get a feel for the kit. The BM LNWR tender is for later the Bowen Cooke version, but as I needed the earlier Whale version, I added the BM conversion kit. This provides a cast w/m top, etc. I encountered some problems with the tender body side frames, which are half etched. They distorted as I soldered them in place. I took the opportunity to produce a set of parts in etched nickel silver on a test etch for one of the kits I have designed for London Road Models. In addition to the side frames, these parts included the tool "tunnel", new coal rails and new coal space "fences".

The first two photos show the tender as it now is, awaiting painting.

The tender chassis was built as supplied, but with the addition of compensation on the two leading axles using LRM hornguides/bearings. The two bars accross the front and rear spacers are required to raise the tender body to the correct height as the chassis is too low by 2.0mm. The chassis now has pickups acting on the top of all six wheels.

The next episode will cover the loco frames chassis.

Jol

i sold a wisbech and upwell tramway, bogie & 4 wheel coach on ebay last year, i paid £8 for it, and got £140! and it went to newyork!

 

ah well each to their own!

 

martin

That's alright untill you have to pay Capital Gains Tax on it!

The 4mm L&NWR kits went to London Road Models (where else). These include the 10T brake van, which has new etched parts to make it easier to build. It can also be built in NLR and L&NWR Ballast Brake versions.

Despite this, old D&S versions of the kit usually sell on Ebay for more money than a new LRM one. Are people stupid or genuine collectors of unbuilt D&S kits?

Interestingly, very few of the etched L&NWR 6 wheel lugage or milk vans pop up on Ebay.

Could the approach be, to contact the membership/general secretary of these organisations, and ask for relevant membership data - the aim being to assess market size which appears to be the biggest query of Mr Lovett. Sort of describing the purpose of the letter and asking broad questions about membership numbers, degree of railway modelling interest, possibly more.

 

Precise detail is perhaps not that important, but some scale of the market is.

 

And remember, this is still only reaching and assessing a subset of the broader market.

 

I'd considered alternative approaches of perhaps assembling and presenting a 'package' of preliminary research work, drawing sources, photographic references, possibly also measurements and drawings made of any preserved examples, but consider that without the market assessment it would be largely pointless.

 

Perhaps Hornby will be better placed to gauge the Scottish 4mm market, using the sales figures of the recent Polmadie-special Black 5 45458 (IIRC).

Put yourselves in Bachmann's or Hornby's shoes. Their product plans for 2011 and possibly 2012 are probably already fixed. They have a planned number of new steam outline introductions per year. This is probably constrained by their own ability or the Chinese manufacturers ability to research and design a number of models each year. They are also busy producing livery variations of existing models, which are happily hoovered up by the UK collector/modeller.

You already know the sales volume that Bachmann (and probably Hornby) consider as viable, 5,000 initially and 9,000 overall. Unless all the sales go through one outlet, e.g. NRM or Murphys, they may have in mind a purchase volume commitment from a retailer/organisation that would get the ball rolling. Clearly, the balance of sales would have to come from the usual outlets but you would have a figure that you could review and discuss with anyone you approach to "underwrite" the production of the chosen model.

Do you already have an indication of the margins available to the retailer? It's possible that as sole outlet, NRM were able to negociate price/margin to match their museum shop customer profile. I expect that, with City of Truro in particular, they also rely on sales to a number of "casual" modellers and enthusiasts through the museum shop. Obviously, they have a high volume of visitors to support this.

Like Larry, I hope that these suggestions will inject a sense of reality into the project. If you are going to involve yourselves in promoting a commercial undertaking, then you really need as much information as possible. I would suggest a further approach to Bachmann for more information, now that you have established a dialogue. You need to understand all the financial criteria, as well as the modelling ones, so that you are well informed ahead of any approaches to potential retailers that you make.

Good luck.

Possibly.

 

It might come across that one thread on one internet site should be enough to convince the manufacturers, the big two, to do us a model. However, I think there's a clear sense of realism, not least from Caledonian who's leading this effort admirably.

 

I'll personally be happy if we see some consideration given, if we can present a strong enough case for a manufacturer to take any notice, even if the answer is - "well played, but no". That much looks promising already, top marks to the man from Barwell for the considered response.

 

You also mention kits, this does worry me. AFAIA the Scottish loco scene is under-served even in kit form, scraping the barrel of Ebay for 1970s vintage whitemetal kits (with worthy exceptions, e.g. Caley Coaches kits, some Highland stuff too) is not really much indication of a strong market.

 

26power's post, typed in authentic BR maroon above, is worthy of further consideration as to the way forward.

 

J.

Jamie,

I must admit that, as someone who has no option but to kitbuild to create the model I want, it is possible to find RTR wishlists and polls a bit frustrating. Over the years I've developed the view that, if you really want a specific model you either have to build it from a kit, scratchbuild it or even design/produce a kit. That's how most of our kit manufacturers started, learning the skills and techniques from scratch.

If you don't want to tread that path, then pressurising the RTR manufacturer to produce what you want seems the obvious way to go. However, there are going to be many others with similar ideas, so you need to be ahead of the competition with the commercial viability and desirability of your chosen model.

Increasingly, modern technology is starting to provide alternative opportunities for low volume production. Rapid prototyping as demonstrated at the recent Watford show and being explored by Bill Bedford amongst others is one such technique. Resin casting can also be used for small production runs. Photo etching is another technique that we are well used to. It may be that "thinking outside the box" would provide a way forward if the RTR manufacturers aren't willing to provide what you want. It may cost a bit more, it may take more effort (although there doesn't seem to be shortage of that being applied to the approach to Bachmann and Hornby) but you would get what you want. And, having done it once, it's easier to do it again.

If you don't want to do those things, I think that the rate of introduction of new models by the big boys means that a lot of wishlists will never be fulfilled.

I've just caught up with this topic on return from holiday and can't help thinking that some of you haven't yet realised how difficult it will be to get Bachmann or Hornby to produce what you want unless you can definitevely prove or underwrite a level of sales that will meet their commercial criteria.

Whenever they introduce a new model it is something of a financial gamble. The Bachmann Super D appears to fit most of their requirements for longevity, wide geographical useage, ease of access to information, etc. but hasn't appeared in a LNWR variant as it requires retooling for the round top boiler and they presumably think the potential sales volume wouldn't be worthwhile. The LNWR Society were involved in discussions about an LNWR liveried version (albeit with the Belpaire firebox - and hence inaccurate) and were advised that a minimum volume of 500 would be required.

I'm therefore inclined to think that unless you could form a commercial partnership with an organisation/retailer(s) to undertake to purchase a large proportion of the break even volume of product, then your wishes will remain unfulfilled.

If the potential sales volume is likely to fall short of what Bachmann or Hornby cosnider viable, then you may have to look elsewhere, such as a low volume production run from a company like 00 Works.

You could also turn your energy to building from the kits that are available. If those aren't totally satisfactory (chassis, for example), then perhaps you could get the kit manufactuer to supply the castings and commission new etched chassis from the likes of Worsley Works.

Hi Penlan,

Thanks very much for all that.

In your last post you say purple for the bottom of the coach, is there a precision paint for that and if so what is it called? Doh! just looked at the Precision paints listings, its called LNWR plum isnt it!

I understand from my research some people add a bit of GWR Brown to the Crimson Lake to darken the colour, but I would agree with you that purple or plum seems a closer match to what I am seeing. So an order to Precision paints seem to be the answer.

 

Norman

Norman,

using cellulose for the LNWR plum and white is a good idea if you can get it. It gives a good, fast drying, finish and makes correcting slips with the lining pen easier. I wrote up the technique for MRJ 52, many years ago and I think that is the same process that Penlan uses.

Spray up a couple of samples (at least 4" x 4")of the PP colours and take them to a local auto paint supplier. They have colour cards that you can match to your panels.

I've recently seen a chart showing colours available from Halfords that include the LNWR coach colours. However, I don't know how "accurate" these are.

Jol Wilkinson

A couple of examples of what can be achieved by using several LRM kits.

The Clarendon Box was built by John Gowers, the other by Peter Sapte.

The LRM kit doesn't include the base, other than the etched windows, so you build the base as required to suit the installation.

Jol Wilkinson