GordonC

One aspect governing the potential popularity or otherwise of R-T-R electric stock that seems to overlooked is the main line nature of these things. Fewer people with have the resources for a convincing or satisfying mainline than something easier on the space/time/wallet continuum.

I grew up under the wires and have a soft spot for the AC and DC electrics that did their business between Euston and Watford. It would take a major change in my fortunes to turn my six track WCML model from a concept (from the armchair) to something physical.

My compromise (like those with more than one particular sphere of interest) is to have one small layout rather than several large ones*. The presence of a Bachmann class 85 in my collection is a little slice of what I'd do given the chance. Having no immediate ambition to build a 50x25 ft model of the stretch of line between Headstone Lane and the Oxhey Ridge with endless DC kits 501s, Southern Pride 310s and converted EFE '38s shuffling along; I will happily buy an example of any AC electric stuff that Bachmann may offer me even if it does sit around doing nothing except pay homage to my pipe dream. 

 

RP

There are plenty of double-track sections of the WCML that could be modelled either as core WCML sections or diversionary routes, urban or rural if you're looking for real locations. I dont think its unique to AC modellers to want to have a gallon in mind but only a pint pot of space in practice!!

313 would be a stonking choice to my mind. There's only two bodyshell types to model and the differences are as you say on the underframe - and I'm pretty sure that applies across the whole PEP family.

 

As built, the whole family had the following formations

 

313 DMSO+PTSO+BDMSO

314 DMSO+PTSO+DMSO

315 DMSO+TSO+PTSO+DMSO

507 DMSO+TSO+BDMSO

508 DMSO+TSO+TSO+BDMSO

 

So, by tooling up one extra body shell, the TSO (which might only be a case of doing a different roof moulding if you go down that path) you can then take a crack at the lot. Obviously the 313/507/508 have 3rd rail shoes where as the rest don't but there is a single common bogie design across the lot. There are small differences in regards the door opening buttons (certainly between 507 and 508) but that might be an acceptable compromise.

 

Once you have the TSO that's of use for modelling 455/7 should the MK3 EMUs get a shot (again a lot of commonality but slightly more diversity than the PEP derived stock (different cab/end designs for a starter).

Those classes also touch on quite a large geographical spread of the country as well along with numerous livery options over the past 35 years since they've been around

Is there any sign of these Turbot wagons yet from Dapol?

With such an untapped marked like AC locos and units, someone (I'm presuming Bachmann as they're the main manufacturer making moves in this area) may need to produce a couple of models to span the eras to determine what the public are interested in buying and what they aren't. If the Class 85 covers up to early 90s and Class 350 from 2004 onwards there is perhaps a missing period in the middle that still needs covering to get a better idea of what sales to expect for the different eras

The thing that surprises me is how much the old models are still retailing for. I mean new liveries of the 87 and 90 when they come out (ok its been a year or two), but they've been pretty steep for old, basic models. The 142 is the same, compare that to the Real track Class 144

Well I guess of the AC EMU's, the least risky to introduce would be a Class 309. So popular that there are two preserved, and a lot of common parts to existing mk1 coaches. You could even start off with a two car unit, allowing the all important low entry level price tag, and if you wanted to do the later 4 car versions in NSE/Jaffa cake just slightly modify the existing hauled coaches (just like BR did!) which I think would then only need underframe/glazing alterations to add to them. It would surely be the least expensive AC EMU to tool up and test the water with!

There is also the Class 317/318/455 family. Have you noticed the similarity between the Class 150/2 bodyshells and the Class 318 in particular? Yes, of course there are details that are different and the underframe is quite different not to mention the middle car, but on seeing some of the conversions of Sprinters cut and shut they can be remarkably convincing! I cant see a Class 318 being produced without the other varieties to boost sales

If all such questions were not posted on fora such as this they would be poorer places for it. That way you get more contributions and it generally brings new dimensions into the discussions. Its as bad as me saying when will Dapol release more OHLE only for some clever lurking sausage to pop their head over the parapet to tell me to go do some modelling instead of wishlisting.comments like this really....well,they dont do anything really.

 

In order to at least try and offer a reply to the question yes only olivias will ever hold the real key here but fwiw i dont think the models have done particularly well.ive yet to see any on the exhibition circuits too.

i dont have any facts links or citations just my personal take on them.they are expensive and i believe some criticism has been aimed at them on livery and detailing.....also the MSW line is very restrictive in terms of numbers of modellers who want to depict the route.

I thought Dapol had initimated they were looking at rtp woodhead overhead masts to compliment the models.....thats all gone quiet now so who knows....

personally i think the cl89 ought to be one of the very last AC classes to get attention-maybe i just dont see the appeal or see beyond its limited time frame and operation.

I'd perhaps disagree with that about the Class 89. I think thats looking ripe for being picked off by Heljan with their MO - Stylish, unique prototype, large express passenger loco, niche model, a handful of liveries they could produce in one go. With some of the others they've produced it'd seem a natural progression at some point - Lion, Kestrel, Falcon, DP2 etc.

Of the others, I'd think the 81, 86, 87, 90 could all have a good chance, depending on how they go then possibly 91 and 92

electrics don't sell..

 

a good indicator is the number preserved, as to their popularity...

there are more preserved class 20/25/26/31/33/37/47/50's then there are preserved electric locomotives amongst all classes…, Indeed an almost equal number of Hydraulics.

 

Class 81,82,83,84,85 (1 each =5), class 86 (x4), Class 87 (x3) = total 12 (4 of which are threatened preservation existence)

There is 1 on the mainline, it's raison d'être is to be commodity to ensure the WCME expresses are allowed to run up the WCML from London as they have 100mph & acceleration.

 

 

As for EMU's preservation has almost forgotten they existed.

 

They are not popular.

 

Out of interest how popular are the Class 76/77 models from Heljan ?

 

I think the only electric locomotive which could possibly respond to demand would be the class 89, but even thats a gamble, unless one of the early ones went mainline.

 

I suspect a 303/4/5/6/8 may be a vote winner as it can run alongside popular LMR models in many variations / permutations, but think some pre grouping early 1920s coaches (with life that went to the late 60's) would probably jump the queue as they are lower cost and many more livery / regional population appeal and is an unexplored market gap, given the recent and successful forays into L&Y/GCR/MR/SECR/LSWR/GER/GNR & GWR locos some coaches to match can't be far behind, LMS push pull stock is a bit overdue and a GW Railmotor has to be on the horizon at some point.

The numbers of real ones surviving isn't a good indicator of popularity. Classes 81-84 were pretty small classes with only 60 built in total or 61 if you include the 89. There were 50 Class 58's, how many of them are preserved? Or looking at it another way, how many diesel classes of 10 or 15 built have any left? There was 44 Class 15's built and only one survive. Even popular classes like Warships - 2 (of 38 and 33).

And thats for diesels that don't need overhead to actually be used. Can you imagine the Health and Safety risk assessments these days to have 25kV overhead on a (generally volunteer-run) preserved line??

The AC locos survival rate, even as static bodyshells with little chance of running again is pretty good in comparison to some of the diesels!

All the raspberry ripple livery versions (InterCity, INTERCITY, and ScotRail) have these larger numbers and in what appear to be an incorrect font

The same issue exists on their Class 156 in the original Sprinter / SuperSprinter livery

 

The initial batch were delivered with SC prefixes and Inter-City logos

They next batch were delivered with M prefixes and Inter-City logos, and later replaced with SC prefixes

The final batch were delivered with M prefixes and Inter-City logos, and then transferred away

These were the first coaches painted into the new ScotRail livery, so the logos were not changed

 

It was only the Mark 3A sleepers that had their Inter-City logos either removed, painted over or adjusted

For some reason they were all amended differently

Equally, one of the sleepers 10680 was painted along with the TSO in the trial livery, but was not transferred out of West Coast duties as it was not a SLEP (no Pantry) and was subsequently repainted

 

That just leaves the final phase of Mark 3A use, which was a variety of INTERCITY and those which had their logos painted over (along with some Mark 2F FO and Mark 2E TSO)

I'm sure some of the blue and grey coaches were branded 'Intercity Scotrail'. The photos from the Polmont crash spring to mind as being an example of that branding

much in the same way as Ben A remarked (3rd para) but from a slightly different angle than the one I think he was perhaps sdriving at.  Id rather have the decent models and let my imagination do the rest until I had started to build some decent catenary or added any wires. 

 

I'm not going to build catenary just to run 20-30 years models underneath it - no thank you. I'm happy to wait and if Bachmann say thats its no more electrics then I guess I will never get that WCML layout off the ground at all.  I wont compromise on the locos.

 

It would be good to survey every single purchaser/owner of a Class 85 to get their thoughts discounting those that only buy for displat cabinet reasons (collectors).

I'm not really in any rush myself either. At the moment, I probably fall into the dreaded 'collector' category, other than a testing plank I dont have a layout to run my stock on and it all lives in boxes unfortunately. Hopefully once my toddler daughter gets a little older, I'll actually get some free time to get down to layout building in the room set aside for one. Catenary will feature, but possibly not like a blanket over every length of track!

Until that point, I'll just be gathering stock and equipment as and when it becomes available.

Class 85s are right in the period and area I model (WCML ScR/LMR in mid 80's - mid 90's)

I always get very irritated by comments in the media where someone is portraying it as gospel that AC locos or units 'dont sell' like its some kind of golden rule. I think the fact is that the market hasn't really been tested in the same way that other areas have. We've got the Bachmann 85 which is simply a superb model. There's the Heljan 86, which was rather disappointing in the flesh but apart from that, on the locos side all the rest are 20+ years old mouldings. Now I dont buy 20+ year old diesels so why would I want to pay for something that is little better (decoration wise) than what was around 20 years so (and an awful lot cheaper). No, I'll keep my money til there's something better thats worth splashing out on.

As for the units, well has the AC unit market really been tested? There's the Desiro. Again, a fantastic model, but its pretty restricted in time period and do the modern DC units sell as well as the earlier ones? Bachmann and Hornby have had a series of older DC units that have flown off the shelves, while the only other modern one I can think of was the Hornby Class 466. Now judging by what has been released for that and that it wasn't followed up with a 465 suggests it didn't meet expectations. If the market for DC units is of an earlier period, it would really need an earlier AC unit to test the theory for AC units too. Possibly 304/305/308 or 302/307 or 309 or ideally 303/311!! With such a great Class 150 model I'd wonder whether Bachmann would look at the similar 317/318/455 families (and even 319/320/321/322) to see if any components could be shared or based on.

The Desiro rather than the 85 may have been shrunk to 'N' gauge as much for potential to produce some of the DC Desiros (see Model Rail for resprayed 350 as a 450). Shrinking the class 85 would mean you'd only be able to produce 85's and if the 'OO' gauge market is judged as risky, I cant see the 'N' gauge one being any safer!

I dont really see the lack of catenery being a problem, if it bothers anyone enough, they'll find a way to get something that looks right to them. If that means scratchbuilding then so be it. Personally, I'd be quite happy having lovely AC models zipping round a layout with or without catenery. In my eye's I'd see the overhead being there until one day it would be whether that was something ready to plant, kit built or scratchbuilt.

The thing that might make Bachmann the most likely to try another AC loco again might be shared components with its Class 85. Hornby models tend to be more expensive to start with, AC locos tend to be more expensive than diesel too - combining both those facts doesn't sound appealing! Heljan presumably got stung with the Class 86 (although I am surprised a RES liveried one never appeared, that would presumably have fitted the bodyshell time period too).

I'll have a 303 EMU for my (in the very very very very very distant future) Glasgow suburban project I keep dreaming about, a CIG (think of the special commissions you could do such as 1497/98 Freshwater/Farringford), a 71/74 (you might be able to get some help from the NRM?), and if you were to make an 89 I would probably buy one to use in the future somehow... all in 00 Gauge please. Thanks Dave! 

 

EDIT: Just had a thought, how about Ready-made third rail track? I know it's easy to drill a few holes, do some spraying of the pots and rail and glue it down, but a small ready made range of third rail track in a similar vein to D***l's simple, robust but yet aesthetically pleasing catenary might be a good seller and boost Southern Electric modelling at the same time? 

A Class 303 would be fantastic!!!

The Highlander set looks great, but it would be nice to see an Inverness Large Logo Class 37/4 that doesn't have sound and therefore make it a bit more affordable at some point too though

Is aviation fuel not still delivered to prestwick airport?

I think the next AC from Bachmann would be the 84 to close the gap of RTR AC electric locos these days, especially after the 85's success. But who knows, only Bachmann does.

 

The thing is, is that Hornby hasn't updated the 86 for some time, nor the 87 or 90 or the 91+DVT with bi-directional lights, windscreen wipers, etc etc. And that is why I can possibly see Bachmann for next year releasing another AC loco to the same standards as the 85 and 350. 

 

And talking about the 84, hopefully Bachmann would release in general production, the 84 in RTC (i think) livery of red/blue engineers colours.

I'd have to disagree there. The next AC electric loco would need to be something from a larger class with more livery options than any of the Class 81-84 options. I'd be amazed if the 86s or 87s weren't near the front of the queue to get updated. I think it was possibly a mistake releasing 85101 as a limited edition with the inflated prices + collectors club membership costs. Had it been a general release I'd have had one to join my pair of BR Blue 85s.

as someone that has all the existing RTC models, the RTC Class 84 isn't one that would interest me

There was a feature a while ago with a few pictures of EJ Steeles yard in Hamilton. I think it was in Model Rail, possibly up to a year or 18 months ago

might be more to do with having an emergency brake valve and gauge with which a brake test is carried out before the split portion can start its journey?

What does a brake test before the split portion can set off involve? Does that need equipment in the brake vehicle more than is in the loco hauling the train? Presumably the loco would have gauges to show the air brake pressure or vacuum pressure being maintained

I model the late BR-blue period into sectorisation. For me, being in my mid-30s now, it was just a fascinating time when I can remember the blanket of blue and grey paint on pretty much anything remotely railway related, before all the colours exploded, passing through the tasteful and stylish liveries to the garish you tend to see now. I loved the variety of traction, where the characterful older diesels were gradually replaced by the incoming modern units and the railway was being modernised on a budget. I miss the different sounds and smells, where you wouldn’t know what was about to turn up on pretty much any train, the holiday trains hauled by what was normally freight locos, the variety of traffic operating under what was effectively steam-age semaphore signals and trackwork. There was an excitement about going spotting then which there isn’t now. Now you can pretty much guess from the timetable what type of unit it’ll be, what colour it’ll be in and if it fails the train is cancelled rather than an unusual replacement drafted in from somewhere else. I don’t remember anything before BR Blue so kettles don’t hold any appeal for me, its mainly diesel and electric locos that capture my attention. It seemed a much more innocent and honest time. On my layout the earlier withdrawn classes survived longer than reality so scruffy 55’s, 24s, 40s, 27s, 25s can all be seen along with early 1990’s sectorisation liveries.

This might be a daft question but what is the requirement for a working brake vehicle for? Has all loco-hauled coaching stock not been fitted with air or vacuum brakes on each coach for years and doesn't it need a loco attached to release either the air or vacuum brakes? Presumably the brake vehicles have a manually operated screw down brake, but why is it important to have one of those in every set?

And further, do the DVT's (Mark 3 and 4) have a screw down brake?

Is there any news on the Turbot or BBA models yet DapolDave? I'm really looking forward to both of those appearing