Victorian

Hello everyone. Just a little shameless plug that Gauge 2 model railway will be on show for the one and only time at the G1MRA 75th anniversary show, 1-2 October, Bicester UK. Hope the mods don’t mind!

Here's the Gauge 2 layout running in public for the first time at Northampton's Abington Park Museum last weekend. This is actually the G1MRA vintage Group layout set up by Stuart Rose (centre in Blue shirt) with the G2 running as the outside track using contemporary Bassett Lowke 'hollow rail' brass track, some of which is brand new and unused, All this track came to me courtesy of Ned Williams, who previously ran a G2 track at the Large Scale show at the Fosse. Here's a shameless plug for a live running of G2 with the same layout this weekend at the Rushden Historical Society RHTS, Saturday and Sunday 18th and Sunday 19th September in the restored goods shed at Rushden Station, Northants NN10 0AW . (Everything's a 'first' in G2: First public running of R/C trains in G2 - first use of LiPo batteries in G2 - etc. etc.). And the kids like the 'Chunky' trains!

I believe that I met Harry Franklin once. As a young boy I began exploring the local villages and found myself cycling along a back lane in Radwell, Beds, probably trying to find a vantage spot overlooking the former Midland main line. My attention was drawn by what appeared to be a long derelict tin shed. A suitable gap in the hedge allowed me to crawl inside and when I stood up in the gloom I was astonished to find myself standing on the track of a miniature railway! I explored the whole line, walking along a high embankment that ran beside the main line and across a steel girder bridge leading eventually to a complete miniature station with platform, signal box and, most interesting of all, an engine shed. The windows were opaque with mildew but peering through the crack the in doors I could just make out the smoke box of a little loco, distinctive by it’s slatted chimney. (I now know this engine to have been ‘Highland Mary’, happily still existing though I’m not sure if running). The derelict station backed onto the garden of an immaculately kept thatched cottage and I summoned up courage to cycle back down the lane and knock on the front door to ask if I could see in the engine shed. The white haired elderly gentleman who came to the door must have been Franklin himself. Unfortunately he must have had trouble already with small boys (the tin tunnel was completely stove in, presumably by vandals) and he gave me very short shrift indeed. I never dared go back. This would have been c. 1960. Memories!

Hello again. Here's some more Gauge 2 news: In 1910, Mr WH Jubb built a 2" gauge freelance Atlantic for his layout 'Greystones', residing in a spare bedroom in Mr Jubb's house in Sheffield. We know this because he wrote it up in Henry Greenly's "Models, Locomotives and Railways". The Atlantic must have been modestly successful (perhaps he sold it?) because in 1911 he produced a second one, also described in Greenly's journal. It is this second Atlantic that has come, via a long chain of fortuitous co-incidences, into my care. And here it is, running in full cry in April, 2021, 110 years after it was built. https://www.dropbox.com/s/bfcbsc4kn2jnmfn/V_20210424_142804_vHDR_Auto.mp4?dl=0 Please believe me, it was worth building a gauge 2 track just to see this! The Jubb Atlantic is unusual amongst early model locos in that not only do we have an account of it's construction, but also a report (probably written by Greenly) of it's performance! Writing in 1912, an article in ML&R said that this loco had run on test with a scale load of 147 tons for 18 1/2 minutes covering 63 laps of a 53' track at an average speed of 2-3 mph. Is that a challenge or what? It's taken quite a while to get the Atlantic 'on form'. It is well worn and has loose driving wheels that have been secured more than once by drilling and tapping 1/8" Whitworth screws into the gap between wheel and axle - no doubt an original fault due to Mr Jubb boring the wheels slightly oversize. The original Asbestos wicks had been discarded although the original burner survives, itself a rarity amongst early models. And the fuel feed involves an open sump under the cab with a drip feed regulated by a simple and very loose and inaccessible plug cock. After a lot of experimentation, it turned out that rolled up stainless mesh is the best substitute for Asbestos. And a modern globe valve regulates fuel flow without vibrating full open and setting fire to the track and loco! With these tiny concessions to the modern world, the Jubb was performing well, but could it repeat it's exploit of so long ago? In the meantime, I'd acquired a rake of superb wood construction Gauge 2 bogie coaches, themselves built closer to 1/2" scale than 7/16", just like Mr Jubb's locomotive. And at 7 scale tons / lb weight, they make a train weight similar to that in Greenly's report. In the video, you can see the Atlantic making one lap in about 30 secs. The distance is about 80 feet and the train ran for 20 mins, closely matching it's own 1912 record of 3,300' or 2/3 mile with a run of 3200' 109 years later. Actually, I'm confident that it can break it's own record.... Incidentally, does anyone recognise those coaches? They are GW 'Toplight' style from the 1904-1908 period, but most likely built after 1930 when the Brittains introduced the cast lead flowers and pots which grace the dining car tables! Any information welcome. Thanks, David

Hello Douglas. Thanks for the post. This might be the first new G2 locomotive this century! Do you have track? Actually there is a US Standard Gauge at I believe 2 1/8" which might serve with wide G2 wheels. I've seen boxes of tinplate track at US train shows. Please keep us posted. David

Hi If you look toward the end of the thread 'Playing with an old train set' (Sorry, I don't know how to link to this directly) you can see how the batteries and electronics were fitted in without disturbing the original, other than removing the skate. The crucial part is to have a radio with an extendended antenna, because radio signals don't propagate well inside metal locomotives! Reference the George, I have the Gauge 1 version in a similar state of finish which also may be original. It's run for some time with Lipo batteries as discussed above and unfortunately picked up a few scratches after plummeting off a high level track into a thorn bush! David

Thanks for those comments. Actually, there did seem to be a tacit agreement to rationalise the gauges after the war. In 1917 Greenly wrote an editorial asking which gauges should survive and luminaries like Twining and Bassett Lowke replied universally agreeing that G2 should go. A sub-text was that almost all the G2 equipment was of German origin, so it was gone anyway. Quite rationally they chose G1, and also at the same time condemned 3 1/4" in favour of the 3 1/2" we know today. Bassett Lowke explained that keeping G1 and G2 meant duplication of the same designs, tools and parts in two incompatible sizes making production less efficient. We simply cannot see it through their eyes in the depth of that terrible war, wondering what the model railway industry would look like when peace finally came, It's amazing that they could do that at all, and we have to admire their courage and tenacity in discussing the future at so bleak a time. So G2 didn't really die on the vine as I'd always imaged - it was killed off by Greenly, WJ and others. Was it the right thing to do? I happen to think G2 is the nicer gauge, but that's with my rose tinted spectacles looking back on a privileged lifetime spent not having to survive a war, let alone try to salvage some sort of post war economy after it. Most of these comments are drawn from Greenly's 'Models, Railways and Locomotives', where before the war, G2 ranked a close second to G1. It probably was in decline by 1914 but after the 1917 editorial, the magazine never ran another G2 article. Anyway, today their decision presents us with a 'Beeching' moment. Much of the G2 stock still exists in treasured collections, just like the abandoned trackbeds that gave us our modern heritage railway industry. Let's bring these long forgotten models out of hiding and place them again where they belong, on the rails!

I'm sorry to come late to the party, but I've only just found this thread! That George is magnificent, so much so that you think "It must have been restored" but no, some treasured items actually have survived in that condition all the way down to the present. That one looks pretty original to me, although there have been some very clever restorations.... Regarding running the engine, you are into track building whatever you do. I was fortunate to acquire a decent amount of Bonds pre-war G3 rail, which is very similar to modern code 332 as used by LGB et al. I used hardwood sleepers and thousands of self-tapping screws to clip the foot of the rail. With only 1/4" between G2 and G1, dual gauge is difficult and pointwork risky from the de-railment point of view. I built to 10' radius for the Carson loco in my clip mentioned above and have run the coarsest of early G2 stock on it. It says something about Edwardian period steam locos like the Carson Precursor that after a year of running G2, every tenth sleeper on average is charred by a meths fire. The track itself has survived it's first winter without issue. Regarding 3 rail, you do have a choice because modern LiPo batteries like the 18650 have adequate power for most of these older motors. It would be most interesting to see a pic of your mechanism in this regard. I believe my Lipo powered ex 3 rail locos perform as well, or better, than ther did originally and with several hours battery life it's lot more convenient than maintaining continuity on an outdoor 3 rail set-up. (All these locos are converted to battery R/C without any holes being drilled or mechanisms butchered.) Here's the 1910 Bing LNWR Bowen Cook 4-6-2 tank running on LiPo power with a set of Carette bogie coaches. As I've said elsewhere, this is the smallest scale where you actually feel the train coming through vibrations in the ground! https://www.dropbox.com/s/p20ldn08qmgiarx/V_20210404_163508_vHDR_Auto.mp4?dl=0 Welcome to the chunky world of G2! David

Hello. I've recently acquired a G2 Electric 4-6-2 tank similar to the one in the OP. Here's a pic: Note the page in 'The Bassett Lowke Story' showing a clockwork version which is captioned : "Bing / Bassett Lowe gauge 2 Bowen Cooke 4-6-2 tank on display at 112, High Holborn 1910." The models are identical in detail, except for the mechanism. Incidentally, this model is a much better job than some other Bing offerings. It even has flanges on the centre drivers, but is still 1" shorter than scale! I wonder if anyone can throw light on the history of my loco? It appears to have built as electric, because there's no trace of a winding hole, but the motor is WWII surplus. Here's a pic: This mech is very well made, not a clockwork conversion, and appears designed for the motor. So if the motor is WWII surplus, who made this mechanism for a gauge 2 loco post 1945, and why? I've had good success in fitting battery RC without modifying the model in any way, apart from removing the large and unsightly 3 rail skate. It's a wound field motor and I've replaced the WWII era selenium rectifier with a Schottky diode bridge, wired in a shunt field configuration. (Schottky diodes have a lower forward voltage, don't heat up and don't waste battery power). Power is provided by four 18650 LiPo cells, which together with the essential battery management PCB fit very neatly into the front half of the boiler. here's another pic: Note the Battery pack, heavily insulated, in the foreground You do have to take every precaution to ensure that there are no sharp edges, projecting screws or other bits of metal that could puncture the battery pack. These cells are 2600 mAh and run the model for around 2 Hrs, That's the equivalent of about 20W continuous power, most of which is wasted in the highly inefficient 1940's technology motor. Despite this, the loco is sparky performer and probably delivers more output for a longer time than it ever did in 3-rail days. Here it is with a little cabal of pre-WW1 Pacific tanks: From L-R, 'Abergavenny' by Butcher, GCR Robinson tank by Bing (clockwork) and the Bowen Cooke tank, all gauge 2 c. 1910. Finally here's a little video showing what a gauge 2 train actually looks like whist running in the 21st century. I wonder what Greenly and Bassett Lowke, who were so keen to kill off G2 after the Great War, would say? (Incidentally, G2 is the smallest gauge where you actually feel the vibrations of an approaching train through the ground, because the stock is really chunky compared with G1! https://www.dropbox.com/s/p20ldn08qmgiarx/V_20210404_163508_vHDR_Auto.mp4?dl=0 David

Yes, depending on the grade. Some vinyls are branded 'permanent', but will still come off with hot a air gun. This one is 'peelable'. The vinyls available for home printers are even less adhesive and have to be glued at the edges, but are great for getting the geometry right before going to a professional printer for the final result. These vinyls are used on full size trains like Eurostar, so they have to stay on but come off when needed. The Carson engine also has a vinyl wrap, but the colours are all skewed due to biassing for a home ink jet printer and the line thickness, based on Carson's original paint job, is far too heavy due to the much higher colour density of the vinyl compared with paint. This vinyl has stayed on despite the meths burner in this engine being prone to flare-ups. The next version will use near scale line thicknesses and true LNWR colours, a departure from Carson's practice, but you have to stop somewhere....

Hello Claughton. I'd really like to know if the Gauge 2 'Abergavenny' is in Butcher's catalogue. Here's a more recent picture, showing how I've dressed it up in a vinyl wrap (remains of Butcher's green colour scheme still present underneath.) It's towing the Carson 'Precursor' by the way, which is proving to be a demon of an engine, but likes to run the boiler dry. Abergavenny is by far the best of my G2 loco's, mainly due to the modern '540' motor which has replaced the boiler motor for now with a pin compatible installation. Currently I'm working on the G1 Carson flash steam 'Experiment'. This model is very well worn, so it must have worked (and worked hard) once upon a time. Hopefully it will again. The coil is intact although it needed quite a bit of tweaking to get it to fit inside the ceramic insulation I'm using, suggesting it had drooped through intense heating. (The original asbestos was helpfully removed by the first time I saw this model, more than 20 years ago). The coil was blocked, but amazingly still had water in it, allowing me to flash the original feed water and detect the location of the blockage which I cleared with brass wire. Here it is. If anyone has seen, or has any knowledge, of running these flash steamers I'd be very pleased to hear about it. This one has it's original meths lamp (I know it's meths and not petrol because Crebbin said so in his 1922 article) and the chassis runs on air. I've just bought a new fire extinguisher, so not too many more excuses...

Stumbling across this old thread, I thought I'd report back on the gauge 2 Carson Precursor.... Here it is a couple of months ago, running with some rusty but complete Carette G2 bogie coaches. It took several iterations of the burner (which was missing) to get to the present six wick 1/4" stainless mesh configuration. With this, it's a demon! Here's a link to a video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xi1tm239owarv04/V_20200712_130000_vHDR_Auto.mp4?dl=0 I'm not sure anyone will find this update, but if you do, I hope you enjoy seeing a 1911 gauge 2 locomotive in completely original condition (except for the paint) running in the 21st century! David

I know I'm posting in an old thread, but these things take time! I thought you might like to know of some Butcher news. A Butcher G2 loco came up in the SAS auction before Christmas. Well here it is now: It's an 'Abergavenny' built to a very high and almost dead scale standard by the unknown (to me at the time) firm of C. Butcher &Co in Watford, quite possibly in late 1910 when the prototype came out. The paintwork shows the effect of long storage in a not always dry place, maybe since the First World War, depending on who the original owner was.... It's powered by a Greenly 'boiler motor', a wound field arrangement of startling inefficiency, requiring 4A running current! Originally 3 rail with plunger pickups, it's now running from 3 x 18650 Lipo cells, as used in the Tesla car, giving about 30 mins run time, with a protection PCB, giving 11.1 volts which is just enough. The Esc is micro Viper. Notice the 'reversing engine' at right. This has been replaced for now by a bridge of Schottky diodes while I investigate means of re-magnetising the original mechanism. But the loco is running on the original motor, which sounds a little like a petrol engine in operation! Here's the reversing engine cleaned up: The track is made from an amazing bundle of Bonds FB rail, probably for 2 1/2" gauge, that I acquired at the G1MRA Midland group AGM which turned out to be exactly sufficient for a 20' x 40' circle, mounted on hardwood sleepers in 3' lengths with stainless screws. The loco needs 10' radius anyway. I still have some points (G1, but convertible) and rail left for sidings. I've acquired a fair bit of rolling stock over the years, all very cheaply, and have the 6 (yes, six!) Carette coaches that came with the loco from SAS. As you can see, the loco paintwork presents a dilemma: It's very poor, but still original, and I'm reluctant to touch it. However, the other side tank was missing and I had to make a replacement (thanks to Malcolm High) so new paint will be needed. I also made a new intermediate gear (I've noticed many antique locos seem to have missing gears, perhaps because people play about with the motors). This one I made in 3D sintered nylon courtesy of Shapeways and so far it's stood up fine: Next up: the G2 Carson 'Precursor', which I got to the stage of running on a piece of straight track a few years back. And a Jubb G2 Atlantic, which I acquired privately in completely pristine condition, although unlike the Butcher and the Carson, it's not a scale model. Note: there are lots of G2 models around and my track is designed to be portable -it just slots together with LGB rail joiners. Maybe we could get together someplace when the present emergency is over and brush the dust off some of those unique and historic artifacts?

I just stumbled across this excellent thread! I'm currently restoring a Carson / BL G2 4-4-0 Precursor. Here it is on it's first ever run (about 10'). It's the original boiler cleaned of a century of hacking about with soft soldered fittings, reflowed with silver solder to current ME standards. It steams OK, but not as fiercely as a modern loco would. Next step is to find enough track and I do have some identical to that in the OP. Unfortunately the loco requires a 15' circle, so I'm still looking for additional track if anyone knows of any...