Combe Martin

Just to clarify, Karhedron's conclusions are correct. It was originally a diagram 0.57 built 1946 using a standard GWR underframe. At some point in its life (possibly in departmental use ?, possibly before ?, but at the moment that's unknown) it's been re-tanked with a tank (and the 4 supports ?) from a diagram 2173 ex LMS vehicle, Quote from West Somerset Railway information ..... 'Originally built for United Dairies. Has been re-tanked with tank from ex-LMS Diagram 2173 vehicle. P 1996. At Dunster'. Also given that this same underframe is used under many ex GWR and BR diagram vehicles it surely really cannot now be called a diagram 0.57 ? I would suggest this one shouldn't be used as a prototype for a new RTR model, though the underframe is OK.

W3000 is an ex Cow & Gate tanker, and is the first photo I've seen of a diagram 0.52 one.

I've just checked the list of locos repainted green in the RCTS book, and compared it to the list of Std 5's allocated to Bath. The only green loco's that were at Bath in 1960-1962 were 73031 and 73054, but 73031 was only there from 12.61 to 4.62 , whereas 73054 was there from 4.61 to 8.65 . 73054 had a BR1H tender which was identical to a BR1 but fitted with a fall plate and gangway doors. I've dug mine out (it was packed away mid moving home and building a new layout) and looked at what I'd done to it. It was originally 73014 so had a BR1 tender (no fall plate or gangway doors) and had (what I'd call) a cab back plate plus rear full height vertical handrail. I removed these and fitted the gangway doors (I think I took them off a Std 4 2-6-0) but hadn't got round to making and fitting a fall plate. You said yours had a BR1A tender but the book dosn't show any of those being fitted to the Std 5s, but I think it looks identical to a BR1. It just has a higher water capacity . There is a very good 'sideways on' colour photo of 73054 at Swindon on page 132 of the RTCS book. It also shows the running plate only has lining at the lower edge. I scraped the top lining off mine. If you need any more info just let me know. Peter.

I don't have any experience of Farish models . What's it numbered as at the moment ?

I've just spotted you said yours has a BR1A tender. As I recall isn't that the one that's just fitted to 73050-52 . I don't know what the visible differences are between that and what's fitted to 73054, so it might not be correct.

You'll need to check the tender type and cab 'entrance area' (handrails etc, there are differences) is correct. I cant remember which Bachmann loco I renumbered now, I've still got its box, but the book showed 73054 was in the correct batch.

This book is very good, it has all the details of everything that happened with the std 5's and 4's in their whole lifetime. I bought it because the S&D used loads of them, and I knew I'd have to renumber several Bachmann ones.

I've got the book (is it the RCTS book, I cant remember) about the standard 5's and 4's and it includes details of the repainting, but I'm on holiday in Sunderland at the moment so havnt got access to it. I'll be back Monday evening so can look it up after that if you still need to know. In OO gauge few years back I renumbered a Bachmann green one (cant remember which one now but I checked carefully it was the correct version) as 73054 for a 60's loco.

These are 2000 gallon tankers.

It's just a guess, but does the filler at one end go with a sloping tank for emptying ?

Thanks for this one. I hadn't picked up before that one of the other GWR/BR and LMS differences was 6 saddles for the GWR and 4 for the LMS. From the post by hmrspaul it seems its diagram 0.57 3018 and it had been re-tanked with an ex-LMS one so that's where the 4 supports have come from.

It's an early (no roller bearings) BR or GWR underframe (brake lever on the right hand side and with small same size dampers on all 3 wheel sets. I'm on holiday at the moment so havn't got my picture books and notes with me so cant have a guess at the diagram no. The running number looks like 30?5 ? As we've said before, preservation era tanker pictures sometimes tell lies, but when I get home I'll see if it ties up with anything I've got. From it's paint scheme, its had some 'other' use by BR after it was no longer needed for milk.

Hmmmm ... that one hadn't occurred to me, so it looks like unless it ties up exactly with older photos of other tankers for the diagram it's number is for, it'll be best to ignore it.

Well that does seem to be the main livery in BR days to well after the end of steam.

I know this sounds obvious, but it would seem to be for most ... original dairy livery, then BR silver, then dirty versions of both. I've been studying Somerset & Dorset early 60s colour pictures and they are all dirty with sometimes a bit of what's probably silver showing though. The David Larkin book that I've been quoting from has black and white pictures from the late 60's to early 70's and they are mostly dirty or slightly dirty silver, with the odd dirty blue Express Dairy livery. There is also the odd clean St Ivel picture but no one tanker would have had both Express Dairy and St Ivel livery as St Ivel was part of United Dairies/Unigate empire. Occasionally you can see a bit of the dairies old livery showing through the dirt, examples are IMS and MMB.

Sorry, we crossed paths on this one, your post arrived while I was still working on mine. As you've pointed out, using a preservation era photo for a reference point is fraught with danger. Apart from the underframe, W3043 is a completely different vehicle to it's original state !

I cant answer your questions, but I've got a bit of a conumdrum here. W3043 is, according to 'BR Parcels and Passenger-Rated Stock' by David Larkin a diagram 0.57 tanker, but this book also has a picture of W3048 which is also supposed to be a Diagram 0.57 tanker, and guess what, they're nothing like each other. W3048 has 6 small tanker support blocks, not 4 as above, and the tank filler is at the left hand end with the associated side platform, frame and ladder, not central with central ladder as above. I presume that one or the other has had a tank change ?

Re Diagram 1994 I think this has to be the understatement of the year !

Hello Brian, thanks for that, however .... The LMS Diagram 1994 tankers These seem to be mostly shared between the Express Dairies fleet and the United Dairies/Unigate fleet. However as I've mentioned somewhere before, the non 1994 photos of Express Dairy tankers (apart from one) all show them with full wrap round tank straps whereas the non 1994 Unigate tanker photos (apart from tankers inherited from the smaller 'dairies') show them with the half hidden straps. I havn't found many diagram 1994 photos, but of those, the Express Dairies photos conform to the above 'rule' but so does the one Unigate photo. So the Unigate diagram 1994 tanker is therefore different from the Express Dairies diagram 1994 tanker (apart from the underframe they are completely different), something is obviously a 'bit wrong', you surely cant have two different tanker types under one diagram number. The number of this tanker is M44252 so I'm wondering if the quoted diagram number is wrong (in both the photo and the list). There are lots of other United Dairies/Unigate tanker numbers listed under diagram 1994 but I have no photos of them so cant say whether this is just a one off anomally.

Nowhere have I suggested just a 'handful that meet my requirements'. When I started this thread I suggested making an accurate ex GWR underframe because there were more ex GWR tankers than any other, plus with BR adopting the GWR underframe for BR built examples this means that this was the most numerous type in use. After nationalisation all 4 'old' companies tankers could be seen anywhere in the country not just in their old region. The early GWR underframes had the Dean-Churchward brake gear but this was only up to diagram 0.47 plus possibly 6 diagram 0.51 . A total of just over 100. From Diagram 0.52 they were succeeded by the later large brake level style, a total of over 200. For this reason I suggest the later large brake lever type. Both types were seen at Bailey Gate and I don't mind which type is produced but if only one is done it surely makes sense to produce the one with the largest quantity. The other small difference is that BR built examples (after 1948 I believe) were fitted with rollerbearing axle boxes. This is only a small difference, and I would have thought could be an easy tooling alternative. Photos suggest that some earlier individual underframes had rollerbearing axle boxes fitted later in their life (when in the works for maintenance), but you need a photo of a particular tanker at a specific time to say what was fitted and when. I would suggest making the non BR underframes with the original axle boxes. If a manufacturer wanted to build LMS underframes I have no problem with that, they were also seen at Bailey Gate, so were the SR ones too, but there wern't many of them. I wouldn't suggest making LNER types, these were the smallest group, even less .. only 38 tankers in total, so the comments re LNER differences are irrelevant. As also are wheel diameter differences, because they are all the same size for GWR types. and a different same size for LMS types. By the late 50's there were two big fleets of tankers, the Express Dairies group and the United Dairies/Unigate group. Bailey Gate was the later. If a manufacturer was just to make just 2 diagrams it would make sense to make one from each. I would suggest picking tankers from the diagrams that had the largest numbers of tankers but also where there are photos showing which other details the tanker had, ie central ladder, or ladder/frame/side platform and its position, full straps or half hidden straps, top platform style, number and shape of tank supports, etc. Given a bit more time, I can produce a short list of diagrams that have ... 10 or more tankers but also where I have a photo too, that's of course provided I'm not accused of trying to 'swing things my way'.

I wasn't suggesting that W1954 was painted silver or fitted with UD plates (more likely it just became covered in grime) but just that it became part of the UD 'empire'. I've also since corrected myself and pointed out that the diagram 0.53 tank was fitted to a one foot longer underframe. So this particular Hornby version is wrong.

Are you sure, my Russell picture of an 0.55 (page 241) only shows numbers going up to 1995, which ties up with the Rumney models list.

I accept that with N gauge a lot of the details are too small to see properly, but that's not the case with a 4mm model. I wont be running a 10 tanker milk train. At Bailey Gate the most that ever arrived on one train were 3 usually attached to the front of a down passenger working. They were then detached and shunted by the train loco into the milk siding. Later, some other milk tankers going out would be shunted out of another siding and onto the back of an up passenger service, again 3 at the most. So I want about 10 at least, 3 max going in, 3 max going out and 4 maybe already there, and some coming tomorrow or the next train. And yes I'll weather them too. Why is it ok to expect absolute accuracy with all other types of rolling stock now but not milk tankers, just because there's lots of diagrams. I'm not expecting dozens of different diagrams to be produced, just a handfull. As I've pointed out, the underframes are standard for each of the 4 railway companies (with just some small differences in the ex GWR examples which could be 'not modelled' if necessary). As usual, a dated photo of your prototype is best to work from. The Dapol version does at least have brake blocks in line with the wheels and the tank end supports are attached to the front of the buffer beam, neither is the case with the Hornby model, but it does have big 'boiler bands' which may need removing depending on the diagram being produced. Unigate tankers (Bailey Gate was a United Dairies Milk Factory) mostly didn't have external tanker support bands, which is what the 'boiler bands' are part of. Trying to improve the current RTR generic tankers will be a bit of a challenge, that I will try.

The livery is authentic for an Express Dairy tanker, and the underframe is definitely an ex SR one (Brake lever near the middle and huge spring dampers), however 4409 was a diagram 3159 belonging to United Dairies ! By the end of the 50's most of the smaller dairy fleets had merged into either the Express Dairy fleet or with the United Dairies fleet to become Unigate. Also, apart from one picture of W2596, all the photo evidence of Express Dairy tankers show them with external strapping round the outside of the tank, whereas the United Dairies tankers were the opposite, all seemed to have the strapping under the top half of the tanker cover. The exceptions to this were the ex Co-Op and the IMS tankers which had external strapping and went to United Dairies. There were also the Milk Marketing Board tankers which went to BR who then passed them to both Express Dairies and United Dairies. All the photos I've seen of these hasd external strapping. I wonder if the tanker in the above picture has a 'bogus' livery because it looks attractive ? Most of my info is taken from 'BR Parcels and Passenger-Rated Stock Volume 2' by David Larkin, and from the Rumney Models '3000 Gallon Milk Tanker diagrams' list.

Except its not correct for a diagram 0.53 I've just discovered that a diagram 0.53 is one of 4 ex GWR diagrams that have an underframe that's one foot longer than all the other diagrams, ie 21 foot 6 inches. The rest were 20 feet 6 inches. This was to accomodate tanks that had a filler at both ends and also those that had 2 small tanks on the one underframe.