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Picture of 5030 Shirburn Castle at unknown date when coupled to a Hawksworth tender G [arms] W. Also 5022 Wigmore Castle in official GWR photo.

Issue 16 here... http://www.greatbritishlocomotive.co.uk/the-models/

The picture in post #9 was too dark on my screen to see any detail so I have taken the liberty of making it 35 percent lighter in Photoshop. This tender under frame looks like the 1925 shape. I was not aware that the early Churchward frames were modified in the Collett period by welding in corner pieces and assumed that at least the ones on the 1925 built Castles 4083 to 4092 had new frames.

The bracket modification was to strengthen early Churchward style tender chassis. The 1925 Collett type as modelled by Bachmann made the frames stonger by having extra steel in the corners. In 1936 or thereabouts the strength was improved by increasing the angle of the frame either side of the axle box to about 45 degrees. As shown in OP pictures. It would seem that tenders could change every 18 months to two years so accurately dated photo's are essential yet are hard to find.

Which model did the 4000 gallon tender with roundel come from?

If anyone is still looking for - R3166 Knight of the Grand Cross 4018 - Cheltenham Model Centre web site lists qty = 31 in stock. Not sure how up to date the stock level is.

As it is getting more difficult and expensive to bring out completely new model locomotives, the manufacturers could look at minor tooling updates that could persuade punters to buy another variation of an existing model. The GWR 3500 gallon tender may offer an opportunity for relatively simple 'new' models. About 100 years ago the standard Churchward 3500 gallon tender was a variation of the type used by Armstrong and Dean but had the coal rails sheeted over or replaced. The earliest type of tender chassis which dates back to the Victorian period had a rather frail appearance due to the need to keep the working parts accessible, reduce weight and economise on use of material. Picture 1 shows a white metal model of this type with short fenders, probably K's. The revised 3500 gallon GWR tender with long fenders that is now associated with Churchward and perpetuated by Collett was used on many types of Great Western loco's at various times. Consequently there are many model engines with tenders that are very similar in appearance to the point that the sameness is boring. For many years there were two variations: as used on the early Hornby 2800 class, and a later design used by Bachmann behind Manor and other classes. Picture 2 shows the 19th century type of chassis under an early 3500 gallon tender with long coal fenders. The inherent weakness in the corners near the axle boxes due to stress concentration caused cracks to form. One solution was to reinforce the axle boxes by bolting or riveting a pair of opposite handed brackets to each axle box. Picture 3 shows a Collett 3500 gallon tender with early framing subsequently modified by adding strengthening brackets to the framing at each axle box to absorb the bending stresses set up by the springing. In 1925, ten Castle class engines were built with a 4000 gallon tender with higher sides than the 3500 gallon variety. The new design which was generally describes as 'Intermediate Pattern' had a revised chassis framing to avoid cracking in the corners. The 1925 tender chassis was also used on 3500 gallon tenders during rebuilds. Bachmann has sold models of this type behind Manors and moguls to the point where many modellers now call it a 'Manor tender'. Unfortunately the Intermediate tender in its entirety has not been made in ready to run models but kits are available. Picture 4 shows this 1925 tender framing in 3500 gallon model form as produced by Bachmann. The 1925 chassis shape was a bit fussy and more expensive to flame cut so the chassis design was further strengthened by the simple expedient of changing the angle of the framing around the axle boxes to 45 degrees. New tender frames to this design appeared in about 1936 on Churchward/ Collett pattern 3500 gallon tenders. (The contemporary Collett 3000 gallon and 3500 gallon tenders used the tender chassis similar to the Collett 4000 gallon tenders of which there were two types). Picture 5 shows Churchward/ Collett 3500 gallon tender with 1936 frames and was taken at Didcot many years ago. So, the opportunities for model manufacturers can be summarised as: 3500 gallon Churchward tender with early chassis under superstructure with short coal fenders. 3500 gallon tender with reinforced (bracketed) axle boxes and top with long coal fenders. 4000 gallon 'Intermediate' tender - 10 built new on Castles 4083 - 4092 in 1925 to loco Lot 232 with tender to Lot A112 - and subsequently on other 4-6-0s due to rebuilds and repairs. 3500 gallon tender with long coal fenders on 1936 type tender chassis frames.

Thanks for your post. I did not want a preserved loco and 1955 condition suits me fine.

I posted my class 31 to Hornby repair on 7th November and received a letter on 25th November saying that it could not be repaired and offered a 100 quid discount code. I would rather have had a good class 31 but it clears it up. Very good service on a loco built in 2005. Wht is the possibility of finding a good used green original class 31 without head code, that does not have a corroded chassis?

If you can supply the tender numbers for A117, I may be able to match them to their loco's.

Checking through my spreadsheets I found this information about 4000 gallon Collett tenders to Diagram A113. If I was a proper researcher I would cross reference all my sources but I do not cross reference my files and various lists. GWRTenderA113.XLS For tender numbers 2384 to 2403. Supplied As-Is. Additional information welcome.

Russell, 'Great Western Engines - Volume 2' on page 237, shows a 4000 gallon Collett tender to Drawing number 76936 dated July 1926 which has twin square water fillers for A113 only. This tender has two sand boxes on the front platform with the brake spindles passing semi-vertically through them. It has the weaker type chassis framing. He also shows on page 238 a Drawing number 89790 dated November 1929 with single round filler on the centre line as for A113, A116, A117, A120 and A121. He also shows a high oblique photo of a 4000 gallon tender with twin fillers and a toolbox between them. This tender does not have the sand boxes with the brake spindles going through them and has the longer fire iron rack. Generally, the third batch of Castles of Lot 234 numbers 4093 to 5012 built in 1926 and 1927 had Collett 3500 gallon Collett tenders but at least some of these, including 5000, 5002 and 5003, had 4000 gallon tenders which published sources say were to A113. I have noted that the twenty tenders to A113 had GWR numbers 2384 to 2403 just in case it rings a bell sometime later. A quick reply whilst I search for more information.

A complete photo of 9400 was not possible yesterday so this is the best I can show you. Most of my 9400 shots were of bunker steps, or lack of, and details.

Front of No.4 at 'Steam' yesterday.

Dean Goods at 'Steam' in Swindon yesterday.

I saw my first Hornby Star (Lode Star) in a display case at 'Steam' yesterday and it looks better than in photographs but models usually do. The cab-side handrail did not look too bad but the valve gear in front of the left side cylinder was pointing up hill. The tender handrails looked like some of my early Airfix attempts. However, still a very nice looking model despite the gloom and doom on this forum. Lode Star is the wrong livery for me but I shall buy Knight of the Grand Cross and Glastonbury Abbey when the prices are less than a ton. I wonder if this might become a 'hard sell' in 2014 after the first rush, which is how some dealers have described Beverston Castle and Earl Cairns.

All 1989/1991 Replica Modified Halls used Mainline type split chassis and motor driving rear axle. Models were: Graythwaite Hall (1947 GW), Burton Agnes Hall (preserved GW), Lady Margaret Hall (late BR). All had Hawksworth tender. All 1997/1998 Bachmann Modified Halls had 'Spectrum' split chassis with can motors with a heavy worm/ flywheel driving centre axle. Models were: Raveningham Hall [Collett 4000] (GW), Soughton Hall {Collett 4000} (GW), Witherslack Hall [Collett 4000](preserved BR lined black - real loco was never black), Wraysbury Hall [Hawksworth](early BR), Mere Hall [Collett 4000](late BR). The new Bachmann Modified Halls, when they arrive in bulk, will probably have chassis and motor as on normal Bachmann Hall.

The fly lead for this is Hornby x6113 available on ebay from Peterspares and others.

This is the plug under the tender on new type Castle and other Hornby locos. The fly lead with mating socket is also available.

Try this site http://www.expressmodels.co.uk/acatalog/Micro_Connectors.html

I bought one on ebay similar to this and it is 27,5 mm long x 13,28 wide x 11,2 wide including the clip. I bought it for my car and it is too big for model railway use.

Link to a page of pictures of 22s http://www.flickr.com/groups/2174423@N23/

Picture of D6330 before head code boxes were added. http://www.flickr.com/photos/arthurmorley/4287495035/

Link to picture of 6330 in blue with yellow front showing bow doors open. http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=20074 May be of help to someone.

Would this work? Yellow panel on Dapol model D6316 painted green and loco renumbered as D6334?