Brassey

The brown locos were painted well before 1908 in the early Churchward period and intended to match the contemporary Chocolate and Cream carriage stock. The cabsides were originally cream as were the cab interiors. There is at least one picture shewing the cream cabsides. I lined mine in orange. IIRC some 850's got an overall coachlike body painted to match the carriages too. I think the pics are in Edwardian Enterprise.

The make up of LNWR paints is covered in the book LNWR Liveries Talbot et al. But no such equivalent detail is documented on GWR paints. That is with the exception of the GWS book “Structure Colours 1912-1947 From Official Sources” by Richard North. This includes the work of the GWR Paint Committee 1912-1927. I guess there are not too many people interested enough in pre-grouping carriages for anyone to have fully researched the official sources on that. Any volunteers?

but 2 of the magazines reported on ONE County Tank being turned out in Crimson Lake in 1909 but none of them noticed a change to the entire carriage fleet in 1912? As I’ve said before, the only way to resolve this would be to go through the minutes of the various paint committees at the GWR to see if there is a mention.

So despite this being a homage to the brown livery, in conclusion Mikkel, you too are now coming round to the opinion that the "brown" period never actually existed and is fake news. The fact is that you have researched but found no mention of a change in 1912 in the Railway Magazine , I have found nothing in The Locomotive Magazine of the time. And GWW confirms that it was totally missed by the Great Western Magazine too. And the reason why it was not reported is the change in 1912 NEVER HAPPENED; the colour was red from 1908.

Herewith a couple of shots of Jeremy Suter's railmotor which show what can be achieved. Interesting the two different shades from the same camera on the same day:

LNWR quadrant lining:

I mentioned that the GWR Crimson Lake lining was on the quadrant so here's what it should look like: This is not easy to achieve but you have to lie the pen down low to do it rather than how Mike Trice does it on LNER stock. This is described by Ian Rathbone in his book and demonstrated in his DVD both of which are copyright. Some modellers line the sides before the coach is assembled. Others with the coach flat on the bench. I find holding the coach in one hand whilst running the pen along the quadrant best for me. You do all the vertical lines first on one side in one direction. Then the other direction, then the horizontal lines. I use a rule on the long horizontal bottom lines. You try to fill the corners in as you go along. Allow to dry fully before attempting the other side.

I have generally followed Ian Rathbone's technique illustrated in both his book and video. Mike Trice has posted a few videos on Youtube showing coach lining too. The gold/yellow lining on GWR and LNWR pre-group coaches goes on the molding quadrant not the panel. The Crimson Lake lining above on the PBV does not have black on the molding so is quite unforgiving whereas the GWR choc/cream and LNWR have the molding lined too which helps. I use a bow/ruling pen with gloss paint onto a gloss painted surface. Gloss paint is easier to clean off when you make a mistkae whereas with matt the lining sinks in and is harder to wipe off. I have pens from Haff and also more recently Kern. These can draw fine lines. However I think the consistency of the paint is key. It needs to be quite thick. I have used Humbrol 7 buff which is what Mike Trice uses and was also advocated by Coachman ex of this Parish. The current Humbrol is probably too thin and I think the line spreads once applied. So I have acquired some PP Gorse Yellow which is what Ian Rathbone uses but am yet to try it. For the black I use Humbrol gloss black. All can be toned down after with varnish. On LNWR coaches I must give credit to Jol Wilkinson's article in MRJ on lining coaches. But I am trying to develop the same technique for both companies so have deviated from his. I do have some PP LNWR lining buff but also use Humbrol 9. Humbrol 9 is also used on GWR locos with some red added to create the orange lining. I guess if you can't get Humbrol or Phoenix Precision paints then it is a matter of experimenting and a lot of trail and error. I find gloss paint lines best for me but Jol uses matt. But always onto a gloss surface. All the paint I use is gloss enamel. Jol and others use cellulose car paints for the base. It has to be hard and allowed to dry. For the curved lines it is necessary to use a ruling compass to follow the curve and it is this that has given me the worst lines as per the Duke. I have recently acquired a Kern compass to replace the old school set I have used up to now but am yet to use it. Good ruling pens are hard to come by and I have found, like Ian Rathbone, that the ones with the shorter blades are best. I think Haff still have one for sale on their website which is where I got mine. I got my Kern from a friend. Otherwise it's look out on auction sites.

"Renown" itself was converted quite early; well that's my excuse for running it in 1912 anyway!

I've almost finished an old Jidenco Coal Tank with a London Road Models chassis. This follows a whitemetal K's one with the same chassis. Not too happy with the lining on that though. I also have an LRM Precedent to do.

The Locomotive Magazine, August 1909: "GREAT WESTERN RY. The large passenger engines are now allowed to work up and down to South Wales, via Gloucester. No. 2679, 2-6-0 mineral engine, has been fitted with Mr. Churchward's new pattern of super- heater. No. 2225, 4-4-2 tank, has been painted experimentally chocolate red with yellow lining, and black below the footplate. " Chocolate Red? I think RCTS has this loco painted "Crimson Lake". Are they the same colour?

Yes Mikkel I now realise the crests are a mistake. It needs a repaint anyway as I am not happy with the lining. The other side is even worse. The Duke needs some work on the lining too.

Good to see more P4 on here. Are you a member of the Society? Peter

GWR 4-4-0 Duke and 40' PBV on trial at Berrington and Eye. Both work-in-progress:

My interest in all this is piqued because I am currently building a rake of these coaches: a brake third, 2 x all thirds, a compo and an old K’s 40’ PBV. The latter and one of the C10’s in Crimson Lake. The formation has an LNWR Though carriage to London attached at the rear. As eluded to, I am struggling with the lining so attention has turned to the bogies. Incidentally the compo ran on 6’ 4” bogies. Mikkel you have reminded me of the poor reputation of the Slater bogies so I will try plan A and use Brassmasters torsion bogies. Peter

It's hard to tell but I think on this 40' PBV there are two garter crests; one under each GWR: It is attached to an LNWR corridor vehicle on a through train. PS: I would speculate that the horse box is also in Crimson Lake particularly as the white roof suggests a recent repaint

Yes that’s correct though I think it’s moved servers since. it may not have been just the varnish but the undercoat too. If the GWR used the same undercoat as they did for the brown in the brown and cream livery then this would have soon shown through if they skimped on the topcoat and this wore off.

The only way to try to resolve this would be to go through the minutes of the various GWR committee meetings that should reside in the National archives. Of course you are looking for a minute that may not exist if the change never happened. So I have resolved to paint my stock crimson lake (1912) and nothing in full brown. The single line livery is also quite a challenge to line because there is no black on the raised moulding against which to clean up a wonky line. The choice of paint is crucial as anything too thin will spread making a thicker line than intended; not to mention the colour. I have acquired some PP Gorse Yellow gloss with which to experiment.

I have mentioned before on here and elsewhere that many are of the opinion that there was never a brown period. Rather the change in 1908 was to lake which weathered to brown quickly until the GWR got to grips with red paint. As acknowledged in GWW, there is no contemporary record of a change in 1912

Not only that but I’ve ordered the paint from Phoenix Precision.: M&GN Gorse Yellow

I've answered my own question by reading your next subject on the all 3rd where it is detailed!

That's fantastic particularly the lining! Can I ask what colour you use for the gold lining?

Cab roof and interior. Buffer and drag beams and outside frames all fitted. Outside cranks made up, quartered and soldered on. Rods fitted and bogie levelled up and it runs complete with tender. Steps to be added next and other fittings such as sandboxes and handrails before the paintshop beckons.

From the same display at Manchester Piccadilly:

London Road Manchester was often the starting point for the North to West Expresses. Here are some images of the station: On the concourse above platforms 13 and 14 currently some historical images are displayed of London Road now Piccadilly. One of these images is from there.